A question about a Quad

[Sandlapper]

The Canadian Quad gun tractor a fine old kit from yesteryear sits in my build queue and I have a paint question.

Presumably the Quad would have been painted in a dark green in Canada then had #61 Light stone applied in a divisional repair shop , correct? If so would the interior and under hood- correction bonnet🙄 -areas be left in the dark green? This of course assumes the Quad in question was delivered for use in North Africa. Well, how thorough were the Royal Army painters?

 

(and would the Canadian army use Royal Army paint standards for the green?)

Edited October 20, 2018 by Sandlapper
Thought of other question

[JackG]

There is a listing here of paints used on Canadian manufactured vehicles, and they do appear to be the same (in name) as those used by the British.  I imagine they had some kind of carded swatch of samples they would match with locally produced paint specifically designed for the military?

https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/markings/vehiclemarkings.htm

 

--------------------------------------------

 

As far as repainting interiors go, I had to look at photos , but not much out there to give a hint of direction.  Spotted a few where the cab hatch on the roof did look to match the desert exterior paint.  It's quite possible they followed AFV protocol, and door interiors were repainted.   To quote from the MapleLeafUp forum:

 

'It would be the same as the outside colour, providing the outside colour is factory. If the outside has been repainted a different colour or camouflaged, the original interior colour would most likely remain untouched.'

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27911&highlight=interior+colour

 

regards,

Jack

[Sandlapper]

Thanks for the reply. Now I want to make it up as a Canadian Army quad and 25 pound ! 🤣

[Kingsman]

Photos suggest that the interior colour was the same as the factory exterior finish.  Yes, Canadian vehicles would have been produced in the Canadian equivalent of Khaki Green G3, which was probably a darker shade than the British version.  They did not need to switch to brown as the UK did in 1942 because they still had access to supplies of green pigments.  Being subsidiaries of US companies, I imagine that Canadian production used sprayed nitrocellulose paints with possibly synthetic pigments.  Much of the UK still used brushed oil-based paints made using lead and earth pigments.

 

Repainting would have occurred in theatre for new deliveries.  Light Stone or possibly Desert Pink for Western Desert with various permitted single camouflage colours: black, dark green, red-brown, brown.  With the move into Tunisia, Light Mud became the authorised base colour and this persisted into Italy.  But soft-skins had a lower priority for repainting compared to AFVs.

[Sandlapper]

Good information thanks!!

[Kingsman]

Soft-skins were often not camouflaged, so plain Light Stone is certainly possible.  The most likely camouflage for N Africa east of Tunisia is Light Stone with black, followed by Light Stone with dark green.  I'm not sure that it's ever been proved whether the Light Stone was applied leaving the base green as the disruptive colour.  It would seem a waste of time and paint to paint a green vehicle sand and then paint parts of it green again.  Areas like under and inside the mudguards probably wouldn't have been re-painted, and the interior would not have been done.  Inside the crew doors possibly repainted as they opened wide, cab doors probably not as they didn't open wide enough and their open shadow would have been more of a problem. 

 

You haven't said whether you have the Tamiya FAT with the No12 front or the Airfix/Italeri (and others) version with the No13 front.  The window glass was often painted-over to kill reflections, leaving just letter-box slits.  The No13 cab had the forward-sloping windscreen to reduce reflections, and these were painted less often.

[JackG]

If you are wanting to portray a Canadian unit, you are looking at the landings at Sicily and later.  They appear to have arrived in their European scheme, but quickly got covered in dust.  I have read that Canadian armoured units in preparation for Husky did apply a camou scheme using a paint described as sand coloured, official notes name it as shade no.4, further to which the military description describes it as 'weak tea'.   These infantry trucks also carried something similar, so perhaps the quads as well?

 

http://kingstongarrisonnews.ca/index.php/2018/07/04/1st-canadian-division-members-participate-in-operation-husky-2018/

 

--------------------------------------

 

If you are into read some history:

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1746&context=cmh

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Sandlapper]

Das Abteilung I have the Tamiya with the 25 pounder.

 

JackG: That may be the way I go as I have several North African subjects lurking. 

[Kingsman]

"Weak Tea" sounds like Light Mud (LM).  I've heard it called that before.  LM applied over non-theatre colours like SCC2 brown or one of the greens was a permitted colour combination for softskins in Italy.  AFVs were supposed to be LM and black.

 

Someone has uncovered a Jeep in Italy which is still in what's left of its WW2 paint carrying markings for a Canadian artillery unit.  Look on Missing Lynx.  Over the Olive Drab base - still with Blue Drab serials - is LM and what Mike Starmer reckons is Desert Pink (DP).  LM and DP wouldn't provide much contrast for camo, and a darker disruptive colour was required in Italy.  It seems to me more likely that the Jeep had been painted DP in N Africa and then repainted plain LM in Tunisia, Sicily or Italy.

 

You should get hold of Mike Starmers's booklets on British colours  He does one on "Caunter" schemes, one on N Africa after that and one on Italy as well as ones on BEF and NWE.

[Sandlapper]

The Canadian option is sounding more and more interesting. I’m looking at Starmer’s research on the Caunter scheme for another build. Looks like the Quad is going to Sicily! 

[JackG]

I wish it were that simple, but when I posed the question to the missing-lynx members, there were war dairies quoted as utilizing a sand coloured paint for light sections of the camouflage. 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ontario-regiment-sherman-profiles-t103347.html

 

Referring back to the first link I had posted, SCC 4 (shade no.4)  and SCC 5 (Light Mud) have different visual descriptions.  The latter is described as 'very light grey'.

 

Below is a photo of what Light Mud with Black looks like, and to me it does not look like a sand colour:

 

Mike Starmer's sources have it "... variously described as light khaki, grey and beige"

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?f=47208&t=315778&p=1529009&hilit=light+mud#p1529009

 

Bottom line is, if the Canadian units used Light Mud, why was the official term not used in their directives ...

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Mike Starmer]

Seems to be some confusion here.  You must consider the chronology when deciding about colours schemes and patterns.   The Canadian Army came under the same camouflage regulations as the British,  Samples of the colours to be used  were sent to Canada and Australia too.  The first colour on Canadian Quad would have been Khaki Green No.3.  This is not actually green, it is browner more like a strong US olive drab.  When the change came to SCC.2 brown, the Canadians did so too for the same reason as the British, lack of chromium oxide green pigments. There would be no point sending KG3 painted vehicles to UK in 1943 when there was no matching paint for repairs.  Later with the change to SCC.15 Olive Drab then the Canadian used the US Olive Drab no.9 since these were equivalents, NOT matches.  Vehicles destined for Egypt were painted Light Stone 61 as basic colour.  It was left to the receiving authority to add disruptive painting as required.  From October 1941 disruptive painting was not officially applied but a few brigades or other formations did so.  The paint they used may have been redundant stocks of those used in the Caunter patterning or Camcolours formulated for structures and building.  This could be applied over enamel paint but was not durable.  As of October 1942 only AFVS and certain softskins were disruptively painted.  All other vehicles remained a single basic colour, usually Light Stone, then as supplies became available, Desert Pink.   As repaints are concerned the whole exterior would be covered which in most cases should include hatches, doors and flaps which when open may be observed by an enemy.  Not always done.   This is the situation into Tunisia.  1st Army vehicles there had UK colours.  In April 1943  another change to basic Light Mud with Black patterning.  This is not confined to AFVs.  Fifteen patterns were issued for all AFVs and a lot of classes of softskins too.  There is in MEGO 693 note that an interim colour had been used in lieu of Light Mud, a mixture of 5 parts Desert pink to 1 part Dark Stone.  (I tried this, it  makes a slightly greenish grey similar in tone to SCC.5.)  ACVs were excluded, but an image of a 23rd A.B. ACV has the three ton lorry pattern.  If black is not available then dark green, very dark brown or dark slate may be used.  I presume that dark green was the same as that used in the desert, similar to SCC.7, very dark brown was probably SCC.1A but at present dark slate is elusive.  This scheme was NOT confined to Italy, the order specifically states that this scheme applies to the whole of M.E.F.   Section 4 (a) para.2 is the interesting part which it seems is creating problems. 

' In order to save paint during this shortage, when vehicles arrive in MIDDLE EAST painted in dark U.K. colours, the dark colours will be left and the light mud will be applied as shown on the appropriate diagrams.  On no account, however, will the issue of a vehicle be held up due to lack of appropriate paint.'  

   The above clearly explains why the dark disrupter on some AFVs and softskins does not show a strong contrast with Light Mud.  It was fairly common on Shermans to leave their Olive Drab and simply apply Light Mud.  The same was done on M10s of the Polish a/t Regt.  It also means that vehicles in plain SCC2 brown might be so treated.   Pictures of 'sharpshooters' Bofors SP AA show Light Mud patches applied over parts of the original SCC.2 /SCC.1A 'MM' scheme.   Regarding patterning on vehicles, keep the following in mind.  '13C/ 13/ (G) Cam of Apr 43; 6. Adaptions of these designs to vehicles not included in the data sheets should conform as nearly as possible to the most allied type.'  Put simply, all 3 ton lorries or lorries up to 10 tons should carry the same pattern, all armoured cars their pattern and so on.  The afore mentioned M10s carried an adaption of the Sherman pattern as did the recce Stuart Vs of the South African 6th A.D.   Later in November 1943 a change to a single dark colour was considered and adapted as an interim solution until SCC.15 painted equipments arrived.  A January 1944 order stated that the two coloured scheme is no longer necessary and repaints should be done in overall Dark Brown or Dark Green when stocks become available.  In this context 'Dark Green' refers to SCC.15 and 'Dark Brown' to SCC.2.  The use of differing terminology in orders is normal. it made sense at the time to the sender and recipient.  But some contemporary photographs show a low contrast ad hoc patterning on Canadian Shermans with a hint of the 'MM' patterning.  I and some others suspect that the order was misinterpreted to mean both colours, hence in some case the addition  of SCC1A over US Olive Drab.  I am not sure this has cleared the air somewhat, there is far more to this than I have written. 

[Mike Starmer]

Sorry missed the point about SCC.4  The only document found so far which mentions this colour is that for the 1st Canadian Division Administrative Preparatory Instruction No.3 3 May 1943.  Section 8 Paint. (b) Scales for camouflage of vehicles is 1 gall. of No.4 PFU and a 1/4 gall of No.14 black PFU per veh.'   There are of course lots of other details not relevant here.  Appendix B has a diagram showing how to apply these colours to a lorry.  In this case only the lower parts of the body and cab are black, whilst  the wheels are 1/3 black.  The rest including the tilt is to be 'No.4 Stone Colour' .  The notes are : 'If the canvas canopy overlaps the black camouflage when canopy dropped to lowered postion, then the canopy will be painted black to conform with the original design.'   Then follows 'The black painting must be bold.  Underneath surfaces will not be painted black, but left the original light colour. e.g. undersides of running boards, petrol tanks and chassis.'   I am presuming this order applies to the division destined for Italy since there are instructions too for the scale of red, white, blue and yellow paint for roundels with appendix A diagram.   As yet I have seen no photographs on Canadian vehicles in Italy displaying this patterning.   What surprises me is that by 1943 most vehicles would have been in MTP.46 type patterning which was suitable for Tunisia and later in Italy.   

[Sandlapper]

This is a wealth of information and I deeply appreciate the time spent presenting it here.  I assume (dangerous,I know) that the 25 pounder and associated limber and caisson would essentially fall under the same painting regulations. 

Now I need to decide my next move and acquire the appropriate paint.

[JackG]

Mike, do you have an official Canadian source that declares Canadian military manufacturing experienced the shortage of chromium oxide green pigments, or was this something found reported in British documents?  

 

The CanadianSoldiers web site makes the same statement, but there is no direct footnote associated with it.  Don't get me wrong, I trust your research, just would like to know the origins for this.

 

regards,

Jack

[Mike Starmer]

It was normal practice to conform with War Office regulations regarding colours for all purposes.  I don't have a document which reports a shortage of chromium oxide green but the American did too.  I understand that it needed to be imported but as yet I don't know where from.   I have a document dated 1943 which covers the change from KG3 to SCC.2.  If I can find out how to post it I will; and the 1943 Stone/black diagram too.  All military vehicles of whatever type were painted the same colours according to the current regulations and policy.   Trailers even had the MM patterning on too.   For ME 1943  there is a even a pattern for  the 25 pdr gun shield of which something similar was applied to 17 pdrs too.

[JackG]

Mike, that would be great to see those documents if you are able to post.   About the 1943 document, could that mean then that up until that point, Canada continued to produce equipment finished in KG3 for their own use, while anything slated for British use was finished in SCC.2?

 

About American olive drab, I have read that there was a colour shift to a more brown shade due to their main source of linseed oil in the far east being cut off.  It wasn't made clear though if the lack of that ingredient, or something that was used in place of it, caused the brown shade - but that might not of been the main factor if they too had a shortage of green pigment?

 

regards,

Jack

[Graham Boak]

As I understand,  USAAF's OD didn't use green pigment but a mix of yellow and black.  I assume that, as part of the US Army, the same is true for the Army OD.  But then there was such a variation in the OD used in the mid-war years who can say what all the paint producers might have resorted to?

 

It used to be thought that it went the other way, with the early ODs being browner (which some were) rather than the later ones.

[Mike Starmer]

There would be no point in painting vehicles  on a production line different colours whether for home or overseas deployment.  There was no threat in Canada so their vehicles could be any colour.  So all SCC.2.  Olive Drabs are minefield.  Some years ago I communicated with an American chap doing a thesis on Olive Drab.  I have a folder an inch thick with documents he sent.  Much of this is rather technical which I confess not to fully understand.   The O/Ds used by the ground forces and the USAAF were different.  The army colour evolved during the 1930s from gloss to matt by 1940, it changed colour slightly too becoming standardized as color No.9.  I have a contemporary swatch of that.  The production of this was set out as a specification which set out the exact pigments and ratios thus insuring a very close and constant colour and performance.  

 

The USAAC, later USAAF Dark Olive Drab No.41  was a rushed affair since although the air force had been running camouflage trails since 1937, by 1940 they still hadn't decided a standard for the basic colour despite deciding on the what would the Bullitin 41 range.  Hap Arnold lost his temper a bit and arranged for a batch of 'O/D' to be applied to several aircraft for trials.   This was a variation on the water based Olive Drab No.31 used in the pre-war trials.   Now 1941,  higher authority conceded he had a point, a standard swatch was prepared which eventually was inserted into Bullitin 41.   Suddenly there was a requirement for thousands of gallons of O/D.  The specification as before had not been established.  Chemical companies were sent a swatch and invited to produce a colour which matched as closely as possible and submit samples for approval.  Each of the paint manufactures had their own contacts for pigments and mediums.  There are several different pigments for paints, be it yellow, blue, black red etc.  I have a list somewhere here.  Each trials batch were made up with different pigments and ratios when the paint companies submitted samples each of their own composition.  Time is pressing, the companies whose samples were deemed near enough then obtained contacts for thousands of gallons of 'Dark Olive Drab No.41'.   In the event no precise specification was ever set for Dark Olive Drab No.41.  This is the reason why components on the same aircraft can be seen with varying tonal differences of the 'same' colour and fading effects too.   In 1943 a Joint Services Committee of Navy, Air Force, Army and British representatives met to establish a common colour system.  Olive Drab now became established properly for all services.  That colour became No.319 Olive Drab in U.S.Amy Spec 3-01, which is lighter and slightly more green than before.  I have a swatch of that.   This colour was destined not to be much used.  The USAAF were abandoning camouflage on aircraft whist the British still required it.  There was so much No.41 in stocks that 319 was not used on aircraft at all.  For the Army, although a few new vehicles produced during  very late 1944 and into 1945 did have this colour,  the existing stocks were such that No.9 was still being applied until the end of the war.    Olive Drab of either number cannot be mixed by using only yellow and black.  Agreed you get an olive drab shade but red is required for both colours.  For those of you which who might like to try it, here are my mixes for each colour. 

Olive Drab No.9:  7 x Hum 46 + 3 x Hum 33 + 1 x Hum155.  For #319 then 6 x Hum 116 + 1 x Hum 46.  

Dark Olive Drab No.41:  I have several mixes for this, each slightly different but very close to the sample in  the Monogram USAAC/ USAAF colours book.

2 x Revell 42 + 1 x Revell 86;  1 x H163 + 1 x H226;  2 x H163 + 5 x  H155;   4 x H241 + 3 x H155;  6 x H242 + 5 x H155; 

[JackG]

Thanks Mike - isn't that something though, SCC.2 became the standard in 1941-42, but it was only in 1943 that an official declaration of the change over was made via that Canadian document?  I've no clue how military administration works, but man someone was slow in getting the paperwork out.

 

------------------------------

 

I've read over Steve Zaloga's research on Olive Drab as used on vehicles, and trying to figure out how it fits in with the above (utilized a screen grab because the way the text is laid out):

https://olive-drab.com/od_mvg_odpaint.php

 

 

I'm not sure where the 'browner' shade of olive falls in.  If no.9  is was what SCC.15 is based on, then the browner shade must of come in after that, but it's not 319 either as that is one greener according to this colour card:

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Kingsman]

On 10/25/2018 at 3:29 PM, Mike Starmer said:

I don't have a document which reports a shortage of chromium oxide green but the American did too.  I understand that it needed to be imported but as yet I don't know where from.

Chromium III Oxide green pigment, also known as chromium sesquioxide or chromia, has the formula Cr₂O₃ and used to be called Viridian in days past.  It is derived by processing from the mineral Chromite.  This is now found in South Africa, USA, Turkey, Philippines, Finland, Russia, Canada, India, Kazakhstan, Zimbabwe, Finland, Iran, Brazil, Afghanistan and Pakistan.  South Africa has about half the world's reserves.  But I don't know how many of those were active or known sources in the WW2 period.  Most were "behind enemy lines", wholly or partly in active conflict zones or with insecure supply routes.  And Chromite had many other uses as the only source of various other Chromium derivatives essential to the war effort, such as for leather tanning, chrome plating, stainless steel and other alloys: IIRC some armour plate alloys contained chromium.  More essential than pigment.  I haven't discovered where the pigment itself was actually produced at that time.  It was first processed in Paris in the mid 19th century using heat, sulphur and acid.  Russia apparently did not have a problem accessing it as they used the dark green 4BO throughout the war on about 100,000 AFVs, never mind artillery and soft skins.

 

In the late 1950's, it was discovered that Chromium III oxide can occur naturally (i.e. without complex processing) in the rare mineral Eskolaite, found in Finland, Russia, Ireland and Guyana.  But not relevant to WW2.

[Kingsman]

I mentioned 4BO Protection Green above.  Looking into it further, this was actually a green made without Chromium Oxide so I must apologise for confusing the issue.  It seems therefore that no-one had access to Chromium III Oxide pigment for much/most of WW2, wherever it came from.

 

With thanks to the 4BO Green website, this colour did use a Chromite extract pigment but in the form of 15-20% content of the highly toxic and carcinogenic Zinc Chromate.  As most of us know this is a yellow-green colour, most commonly seen in its virgin colour as an aviation primer.  The main component of 4BO was 40-60% Yellow Ochre with 10-20% White and 10% Ultramarine.  So it's essentially a green made from yellow and blue.  But with such wide tolerances in the amount of each pigment there could clearly have been considerable variation between manufacturers and batches.

 

US OD shades were principally a mix of Yellow Ochre and Black.  This does beg the question why the UK could not have adopted a different shade of green like OD in 1942 instead of opting for the sub-optimal brown.  With the amount of black being sloshed all over 20-odd thousand RAF heavy bombers it clearly wasn't in especially short supply.  Having said this, and perhaps because of the RAF need, the Army had to use Nobels Dark Tarmac and Blue-Black.  One assumes that Yellow Ochre played a part in the formulation of SCC2 and RAF Dark Earth anyway.

[JackG]

This is some interesting side info on green pigment being presented in this thread.

 

I just did some reading on both industrial and the classical painting aspect.  Veridian, or as the more common scientific names used as pointed out above by Das Abteilung, still appears to be a standard source when dealing directly with green.   Other pigments of that period tend to be either costly to obtain, unstable, weak, or simply toxic.

 

About the blue and why the UK did not turn to that pigment, maybe that again was reserved for the RAF?  They utilized Dark Green even pre-war with their Temperate Land scheme, and continued with the Day Fighter scheme to war's end.   Then there is of course their roundel markings, and likely some blue in their Sky Type S.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The RN used blue throughout the war, although dropping green in line with the Army.  The "black" used on RAF bombers was also a very dark blue for most of the war.  There does not seem to be any shortage of blue pigmentation.

 

I would disagree with the suggestion that the US's OD was in any way inferior to a green. The brown tinge ( sometimes more than just a tinge) gavre some value. The RAF's Dark Green was also an olive.

[Kingsman]

When I said "sub-optimal brown" I was referring to SCC2 not the browner shade of OD.  The change back to a green with SCC15 was made as soon as feasible, after about 2 years, and was intended to be an approximate match for OD.

 

I had wondered about remaining/scarce supplies of Chrome Oxide perhaps being reserved for the RAF.  The British adoption of SCC2 when everyone else still seemed able to make some sort of middle or darkish green does seem a little odd.  If anyone knows the reason I imagine it will be Mike Starmer.  If we weren't short of blue-black pigments, were we short of yellows?  The clay for making Yellow Ochre was mined near Brixham, so we had at least some supplies of our own.  We also had access to Cadmium Yellow from the mineral Greenockite found around Greenock.  One assumes that we had access to large quantities of Umber pigments for SCC2 and the RAF's Dark Earth.