Jim Kiker Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Hi all, You likely will recognize the aircraft from the title; I have been checking through the Tamiya 1/48 Beaufighter kit and a selection of parts needed to make the aircraft from the solo raid on Paris in June 1942. Pictures taken of the aircraft in Jul show light-colored 236 Squadron codes as ND-C. I believe these codes are 36" high, and also that they should be Medium Sea Grey. I have the old ADC decals for this a/c, but the codes are in white; if so it would non-standard as far as I know. If what I have written is correct, I have two issues; first, I have been unable to find 1/48 scale 36" code letters (3/4" tall) among all the dedicated sheets of lettering, and second, among sheets I have looked at, many of them have Medium Sea Grey that is much darker than the color chips I have. I have also looked at sheets in other scales for a equivalent size of letters without success; the closest equivalent is 1/72 48" codes from Colorado/Carpena, measuring out to about 32" in scale. Do any of you have an ideas? I haven't started looking for paint masks yet, but that may be my only recourse. Thanks in advance, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Hello Jim I believe codes for Coastal Command aircraft at the time were in white colour, part of regular Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky camouflage scheme. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I think it’s highly unlikely that white would have been used for Squadron codes at that stage of the war. Medium Sea Grey is far more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Hello This photo comes from IWM collection and can be found on Wikipedia page. The same photo, but of much better quality has also been reproduced elsewhere, like in Red Kite's book Beaufighter squadrons in focus. On printed versions contrast between shades of grey is better defined, but even on this web photo code letters look lighter than Sky lower surfaces. Cheers Jure 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Hello I am sorry to spoil the fun but this photo may not show the aircraft in question. In Kamil Nowicki's book Bristol beaufighter cz. 2, published by AJ Press, part in the shadow of horizontal tail with serial had been blown up and digitally enhanced. Serial number that appeared looks like X3889, which does not make sense as X3160-X4003 batch was allocated for Wellingtons Mk.Ic/III. Author readily acknowledges this but offers no explanation. I examined the photos in books with magnifying glass and eventually scanned them with 2400 dpi and then fiddled with contrast, blur, moire etc. but cannot report anything conclusive. The last two digits of the serial do resemble 8 and 9, although 0 could not be excluded. Very probably Nowicki had access to original print. Its code is given as IWM 2773, if anyone wants to dig deeper into it. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Jure Miljevic said: I am sorry to spoil the fun but this photo may not show the aircraft in question. This rings a faint bell with me. I vaguely recall that no photos were taken of the aircraft at the time (wasn't it an unofficial exploit?) and so, when the powers-that-be subsequently wanted to make a propaganda film of the event, another aircraft had to be mocked up as ND-C. But please aim off for possible false memory syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 From memory it has been said elsewhere that no photos exist of the airframe used at the time. That photo has been said to be of the airframe that later replaced it. i.e it really IS an ND-C but not the on used on the famous raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kiker Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 Hi all, I too had read somewhere that the famous picture hid a different serial number from T4800; what is new is learning that there are no known photos of the original ND-C. Thanks for that! And back to the code letters, I seem to recall that even TSS camo'ed machines carried Sky colored codes in mid-1942. What say you, boffins? Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 May not help, but here's a colour shot a TSS Beau, earlier than 1942 IIRC. Bristol Beaufighter. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr From @Etiennedup Flickr. I'd suggest these are Medium Sea Grey, but this may have changed by the time of the Paris raid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Nice picture. The codes are neither Sky nor white. With that much light shining on them they appear almost Sky Blue, which would not be impossible for an aircraft delivered early enough in 1941 or before, but I suspect that are Medium Sea Grey looking light in the sunshine. But I dunno, they could be light enough for Sky Blue, uncommon though that is on codes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Starmer Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 These codes LA-T look like Sky Grey to me. A common colour for night bomber and nightfighter codes and serials in 1940-41 until the change to red. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Bear in mind too that the Paris raid in June 1942 pre-dated the introduction of the C1 type roundel in July of that year, so some profiles & decal sets showing this have A1 type, similar to the photo that @Troy Smith has posted, while others gave been lured by the photo in Jure's post #4. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 13 October 2018 at 1:16 AM, Jim Kiker said: Hi all, I too had read somewhere that the famous picture hid a different serial number from T4800; what is new is learning that there are no known photos of the original ND-C. Thanks for that! And back to the code letters, I seem to recall that even TSS camo'ed machines carried Sky colored codes in mid-1942. What say you, boffins? Thanks, Jim For the actual raid, and the previous three or four aborted attempts, the aircraft codes "ND-C" had been "washed out" with Grey paint in accordance with the instructions given by the AOC Coastal Command, ACM Sir Philip Joubett de la Ferte, who did not want the Germans to identify the Unit and mount a retaliatory raid at a later date. The Navigators bubble canopy was also cut back further in case a flag had jammed in the flare chute and Fern had to dispose of the second one by alternative means. Following the raid and after Gatward and Fern had returned from Leave, air to air photographs of the aircraft and crew were taken, one of which appeared in George Fern's personal photo album which he showed me at school in 1958 just prior to me joining the Service. A copy of the same photograph appears, partly incorrectly captioned, on page 11 of Warpaint No.1 "Bristol Beaufighter". Always proud of his Forest roots, Gilbert F Fern, universally known to countless East Dean Grammar School Students as "Fernie", passed away in September 2010 at Chepstow. aged 92 Dennis. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Dennis, thank you very much! This is a kind of information one just could not get anywhere else. Now, how much room would a diorama of Beaufighter, racing down the Champs Elysees below rooftop level occupy in, say 1/32 scale ...? Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kiker Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 Hi Dennis, Terrific information, thank you for sharing. Is there a picture that shows how the Nav's bubble was modified, or a more detailed description perhaps? Also, do you or anyone else know what the sequence of squadron and aircraft codes looked like on the right side of the fuselage? Should the two squadron code letters be in front of the roundel, or behind it? I cannot seem to find any pics of 236 Sqn machines from the general timeframe (mid- 1942) showing the right side of the fuselage! Thanks in advance, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 It still isn't quite that simple. If the photo is of T4800 (and I of course have no reason to doubt @sloegin57's evidence), it was taken after its markings had been changed over to Type C markings, as promulgated in A.664 of 2 July 1942. This is not inconsistent with Fern's testimony that the photo was taken after he and Gatward had returned from leave. It's also after a standard observer's cupola had been refitted. Which makes it surprising that the "washed over" code letters had not been reinstated. BTW, for those who haven't seen the photo, the codes are not so much "washed over" as "all but obliterated". Bottom line: don't use even that photo as an indication of how the aircraft looked at the time of the June 42 Paris sortie. At the very least it would have had Type A fuselage and fin markings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoran Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So after reading all this, I'm even more confused than I was when I started. At the time of the flag flight, she would have had the standard pre-1942 roundels all around. That I'm okay with. When you say the observer's bubble was "cut back" - what does that mean? And the codes were "all but obliterated" with gray paint - slopped on with a mop? Carefully overpainted with something low contrast against the camouflage? Sprayed with an air gun? Dark gray? Medium gray? Light Gray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 48 minutes ago, Seahawk said: It still isn't quite that simple. If the photo is of T4800 (and I of course have no reason to doubt @sloegin57's evidence), it was taken after its markings had been changed over to Type C markings, as promulgated in A.664 of 2 July 1942. This is not inconsistent with Fern's testimony that the photo was taken after he and Gatward had returned from leave. It's also after a standard observer's cupola had been refitted. Which makes it surprising that the "washed over" code letters had not been reinstated. BTW, for those who haven't seen the photo, the codes are not so much "washed over" as "all but obliterated". Bottom line: don't use even that photo as an indication of how the aircraft looked at the time of the June 42 Paris sortie. At the very least it would have had Type A fuselage and fin markings. I entirely agree with Seahawks comments above as the same questions have been raised in my mine over the years, ever since I obtained a copy of the Warpaint publication. Attached is my scan of the photo in question and then again, it is a scan from the Warpaint. The "cutback" on the Navs bubble was pointed out to me by Fernie for the reasons stated above in post 13. Traces of the old pre July 1942 roundel are just visible on the fuselage and what could be considered traces of the original fin flash can possibly be made out. On the original photo in Fernie's album the trace of a "C' could be made out aft of the roundel. The questions raised are, as I have said, are the same ones that I myself have raised - to date, without satisfactory answers, which is one of the reasons I have not mentioned it before. One other item which negated AOC Coastal's desire for secrecy. When the Press release about the raid was issued soon after, both the crew were actually named and it was only then that his family found out about it, from the "Citizen", Forest edition, as both Fernie and Gatward were still on leave. I am sorry that I cannot help any further Dennis 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixII Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Sonoran said: When you say the observer's bubble was "cut back" - what does that mean? And the codes were "all but obliterated" with gray paint - slopped on with a mop? Carefully overpainted with something low contrast against the camouflage? Sprayed with an air gun? Dark gray? Medium gray? Light Gray? Sonoran, put simply, we DON'T know, as we weren't there. Extrapolation of known information, i.e. a guess on my part. Dennis, please correct me if you know any different. After reading the post Dennis made above, I would assume! the rear of the cupola, (1/4, 1/3, 1/2? ) was removed completely in case of a hang up with the tricolour being sent down the flare chute, that way "Fernie" could quickly throw out another. Paint. Most probably a 6" distemper brush rather than a mop, 'cos their too big to fit in a paint kettle....... Given they were in a shooting war, and the job would probably have been given to an AC Plonk with the order 'quick as you can'. As to which colour? whatever stores gave to him / them. If you find out, after exhaustive research, please come back and enlightened the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, PhoenixII said: Most probably a 6" distemper brush rather than a mop, 'cos their too big to fit in a paint kettle....... Hi It is quite possible they that they used a mop bucket and put the paint in it and applied with a mop I was told this system was used to apply d-day stripes at a s/w airfield cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixII Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Hi Jerry, mop buckets? Nah, they were retained for White distemper only. Just trying to make a point with a little bit of humour. Not just W.W.II. Gulf war one as well, the Tonkas at RAF Leaming were 'painted' in a homemade ATRF finish, 'cos all the official paint had been bought by someone overseas. Paint was applied by broom, mop, roller, thin and thick brushes by ground staff, aircrew and a couple of Air Training Corps. Squadrons. Cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircooled Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Thanks to the OP for bringing this topic to my attention. It inspired me to do some googling of the subject. Never heard about this raid and I have to say I was pretty amazed to read about the lone Beaufighter that took the war to Germans occupying Paris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kiker Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 Hi Dennis and all, I showed the B&W picture of T4800 taken later to a buddy of mine who is a better researcher than I am. He noted that the undersides of the a/c, on that day at least, seem to show that the Sky under surfaces look like they have been repainted in a dark color; Night/black perhaps? Neither of us can see a bit of light color/Sky on the lower engine nacelles, nor at the area just behind and under the wing trailing edge. Is it possible this picture came at a noticeably later date and the a/c was then on night ops? Re-muddying the waters, I know... Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Hi have a browse here http://www.hrmtech.com/sig/articles/coastal_cam.asp describes black undersurfaces in CCmd A/C also i have read that squadrons kept a percentage of a/c with black undersurfaces, either in a bowyer book, or at the PRO/NA Kew cheers jerry Edited October 22, 2018 by brewerjerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Jim Kiker said: Hi Dennis and all, I showed the B&W picture of T4800 taken later to a buddy of mine who is a better researcher than I am. He noted that the undersides of the a/c, on that day at least, seem to show that the Sky under surfaces look like they have been repainted in a dark color; Night/black perhaps? Neither of us can see a bit of light color/Sky on the lower engine nacelles, nor at the area just behind and under the wing trailing edge. Is it possible this picture came at a noticeably later date and the a/c was then on night ops? Re-muddying the waters, I know... Cheers, Jim 5 hours ago, brewerjerry said: Hi have a browse here http://www.hrmtech.com/sig/articles/coastal_cam.asp describes black undersurfaces in CCmd A/C also i have read that squadrons kept a percentage of a/c with black undersurfaces, either in a bowyer book, or at the PRO/NA Kew cheers jerry As the author of the article noted by Jerry I don't claim omniscience and I have also read the comment he quotes somewhere I cannot recall. I think the problem was a bureaucrat trying to keep things simple on the production line vs operational squadrons required to operate by day and night. I would like to add that it can be difficult to decide underside colours due to shadow and/or poor exposure of the original so ask yourself about possible misleading effects before deciding. Any model built with a reasonable explanation of how the colours were derived is, at worst, going to get a comment from me along the lines of "I can see how you arrived at that even if I think something else is also possible." PS - the comment was by MJF Bowyer in an Airfix Magazine Annual article on Coastal Colours. It's too involved for me to retype just now, sorry. It does refer to the possibility of a mixture of Sky, Night and sometimes Silver undersides, particularly on torpedo bombers in the 1940/1 period. Perhaps less likely on Beaufighters then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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