SEAC Spitfire VIII's delivered with roundels?

[Red Dog]

Building Eduard's 1/72 Spitfire Mk.VIII in No 152 Sqn markings, (UM-C, with the leaping panther) and was wondering if Spitfire Mk.VIII's were delivered to India with the the small 'two blues' roundels or with larger RAF roundels and then had to be painted out before new roundels applied.

All Mk.VIII were sent overseas so did they go out without markings as they they could then be painted with correct marking for their new owners? (Nth Africa with US stars and bars, SEAC with British small 'two blues' or RAAF with blue & white)

 

Cheers

Red Dog

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Red Dog

Off the top of my head I would say regular B (upper wings), C (lower wings) and C1 (fuselage) Types of roundels. Ferrying military aircraft half the way around the world without markings during wartime sounds a bit far fetched and to let manufacturer know exactly to which theatre of operation aircraft is destined to go sounds even less likely. I  doubt RAF or MAP were certain about that at the time of placing an order. Also, aircraft changed units and were repainted quite often. I believe Australian Spitfires Mk.VIII wore at least three different camouflage schemes. Cheers

Jure

[Red Dog]

Thanks Jure,

Just haven't seen much evidence for over-painting of roundels in period photos, profiles or completed models of SEAC Spitfire Mk.VIII's. Would have thought they had regular RAF roundels coming out of the factories as you say then repainting in theatre.

Will add repainted circles to my model before I apply them decals, unless anyone can come up with info to the contrary.

 

Could it be that these Spitfires were totally repainted in theatre, therefore showing no evidence of roundels being painted out?

Edited October 11, 2018 by Red Dog

[Graham Boak]

Supermarine had complained to the Ministries about the excess number of different colour schemes they were being required to use - which strongly suggests, as seems likely from a planning point of view, that specific aircraft were indeed allocated to specific theatres in advance of delivery.   De Havilland made the same protest about Mosquitos.  The number of schemes to be used by the manufacturers was then limited to two..  I don't recall the second Spitfire scheme (if indeed there were two in this case), but Day Fighter was one of them.  Aircraft sent to the Far East would thus require the Ocean Grey to be painted over with Dark Earth, if nothing more.  Whether this was done in the UK at an MU before packaging or in India after arrival, I don't know, but in either case the application of SEAC's required roundels would be done there.   In either case the dark green would not have had any significant exposure, so there'd be little if any contrast between it and the paint applied to cover any larger roundel.

 

I don't recall seeing any photo of any aircraft in SEAC roundels with evidence of overpainting.  Such presumably did exist, because of aircraft flown in from the Middle East, and aircraft which had the earlier large blue/white SEAC roundel.  But probably not on aircraft delivered directly by sea, which includes the vast majority of the Mk.VIIIs.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Red Dog

I think Spitfires Mk.VIII for Australia were delivered in Dark Green, Ocean Grey and Sea Grey Medium and went through several partial and complete repaints during their service in RAAF. Complete or at least thoroughly done partial repaint in CBI theatre sounds plausible as I believe Spitfires Mk.VIII there were painted in Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sea Grey Medium. I believe a couple of photos of leaping panther actually being painted on Spitfire in question also exist and those may help answering your question. I am in a bit of a hurry right now, but will check my sources and return with more information later. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

There is some evidence that the Mk.VIIIs were actually painted Azure Blue underneath, and that this is shown on Frank Wooton's paintings of the type (made in theatre at the time).  I'm not about to repaint any of my examples, but the next one will have Azure Blue undersides (but then it's a WIF anyway...).

[gingerbob]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Supermarine had complained to the Ministries about the excess number of different colour schemes they were being required to use - which strongly suggests, as seems likely from a planning point of view, that specific aircraft were indeed allocated to specific theatres in advance of delivery. 

 

It was along the lines of "20 Spitfire Mk.VIIIs per month allocated to Australia, 15 to Far East. 40 minimum for North African theatre, any shortfall of required monthly quantity of VIIIs to be made up by IXs."  [Note: just giving a hypothetical example, so don't quibble about destinations or quantities.]  At times, naturally, there was a fair amount of, shall we say, alterations of plan- not to mention the frequent change of quantity per month.  But basically, the Spitfire group (Vickers) was told this sort of allocation, and it was up to them to figure out which individuals from which production stream would fulfill the requirement.  In the case of VIIIs it would have been relatively straightforward (most of the time).  Imagine Mk.Vs, though, which at least for a little while were coming from Supermarine (in disbursed production network), Castle Bromwich, and Westland, and might have been needed at home, in North Africa, in Australia, in CBI...

 

In the case of VIIIs, the original baseline was the desert scheme (sorry, forgetting proper jargon), since it was dedicated to export, not home use.  I'd be a little surprised if "non-standard" roundels were applied at the factory. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by gingerbob

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Thanks for the explanation about desert scheme, that would explain Azure Blue lower surfaces on some aircraft, as Graham indicated. I did not find the photos I wanted, but this one should do too:

 

 

The photo had been taken by RAF photographer during WWII in Burma, comes from IWM collection and shows 152 Sq pilot beside his plane. Roundel does not look quite perfect, which to me indicates local repaint. Still, irregularities do not look significant, and I would not worry about them, especially not on 1/72 scale model. Also, there is no visible traces of repaint around the roundel, at least not to my eye. Cheers

Jure

[Red Dog]

Found a couple of shots of leaping panther Spitfires with no discernible painting over in the area of the roundel placement (including that one posted above by Jure). If they did infact go out in Desert camo and resprayed in theatre then the overspraying of Middlestone with Dark Green and fresh Dark Earth over factory applied Dark Earth where the roundels were, wouldn't leave any significant signs of respray. Will on second thought leave camo as is and start decaling.

 

Great discussion, appreciate everyone's input. Will keep this post in mind when doing my planned 1/48 RAAF Spitfire VIII's.

Cheers All

Red Dog

 

 

[tonyot]

The early Spitfire VIII`s were delivered in desert colours with standard C1/C/B Type markings and later variants wore the day fighter grey/green scheme, again with the same roundels. Upon arriving in India the desert and Day Fighter schemes were altered to the DE/DG/MSG scheme with small SEAC roundels. Those which went to Australia were repainted into a few different schemes depending on the MU they were re erected in,....with the markings converted to RAAF blue and white. The later Day Fighter Scheme arrivals retained these colours and the roundels were again converted,

 

Cheers

           Tony

[Magpie22]

Further to Tony's, and Graham's comments, I offer the following.

 

At any given time, Supermarine produced Spitfire VIII aircraft in one camouflage scheme only. Bear in mind that components and sub assemblies were painted as they were finished and moved down the production line. These could be finished and painted months before they reached final assembly. Supermarine's job was to produce Spitfires at the maximum rate possible. They were in no position to repaint aircraft after assembly.  While it may have been possible to specify the destination of each aircraft before it rolled off the line, it was impractical to have their camouflage and markings repainted to suit the destination. Some may have been repainted at MU's before dispatch overseas, as happened in the case of some Malta bound Spitfire V aircraft but, generally, changes in finish to suit theater, or operator, (in the case of Australia), were made after the aircraft reached their destination. This included national markings. All received the standard set of national markings according to RAF regs at the time.

 

Spitfire VIII aircraft in the serial ranges JF, JG, LV and MB were all finished in the desert scheme at the factory. Most Spitfire VIII aircraft in the MD range were also finished in the desert scheme, but some late aircraft appear to have been finished in the DFS, As Graham pointed out, the decision was taken to limit the number of schemes applied to Spitfires by Supermarine, (to just the DFS and PR schemes, I believe). Subsequently, all Spitfire VIII, and HF.VIII aircraft in the MT, MV and PA range left the factory finished in the DFS.

 

Red Dog, (that name conjours up memories), good luck with your RAAF Spits,

Peter Malone

[Red Dog]

Cheers Magpie22/Peter (that name also conjures up memories. Carn the Pies)

Your info as well as everyone else' not only appears factual but also logical for Supermarine during a most intense and hectic time.

Have completed my 1/72 Eduard Mk.VIII in SEAC camo with 152 Sqn RAF markings UM-C with leaping panther over fuselage roundel. Great little kit goes together well if not a little over engineered.  Fantastic detail which does stand out on the completed model. Will attempt to post some picks if time permits and my computer and phone will talk nicely together.

Thanks again to everyone who replied, cleared up a little query I had.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Red Dog