More Mustang question's regarding Lou iv

[stevej60]

Hi folk's,building Revell's 1/32 mustang as the well documented Lou iv and thought of showing her in full D-Day stripe's as I can't remember seeing a model

done without the painted out upper wing stripes as she was  when  seen  in the now  famous group of photo's as they were painted out I suppose no issue

building her thus? Also what thought's on her carrying bomb's rather than clean or with  drop tank's ?

[Graham Boak]

I know of 4th FG Mustangs carrying bombs, but this was not common.  The 8th AF's job was protecting the bombers and suppressing enemy fighters, even over Normandy, whereas the fighter-bomber role was the job of the 9th AF.    It seems unlikely but not impossible that Lou IV carried bombs - look to the combat history of the unit to find such missions?  Roger Freeman did publish the Mighty Eighth War Diary which could help, at least to find out if the Group flew any bombing missions.

 

On the other hand, if it was in service in June 1944 then it will have carried a full set of stripes.  The fact that there was painting on the inner part of the wing is a fairly strong hint.

[stevej60]

2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I know of 4th FG Mustangs carrying bombs, but this was not common.  The 8th AF's job was protecting the bombers and suppressing enemy fighters, even over Normandy, whereas the fighter-bomber role was the job of the 9th AF.    It seems unlikely but not impossible that Lou IV carried bombs - look to the combat history of the unit to find such missions?  Roger Freeman did publish the Mighty Eighth War Diary which could help, at least to find out if the Group flew any bombing missions.

 

On the other hand, if it was in service in June 1944 then it will have carried a full set of stripes.  The fact that there was painting on the inner part of the wing is a fairly strong hint.

Thank's Graham,I considered using bomb's as the combat report of Col.  Christian's wingman the day he was killed stated he was last seen flying in low for a bomb run although

this of course  could refer to a more likely  straffing run  and at the time of the aicraft's loss the upper wing stripe's were painted out.

[Graham Boak]

I reckon that's a pretty good reason.  The wingman would have been likely to say strafing if it had been just that.

[Toryu]

Hi stevej60,

 

Do you want to omit the olive upper surface paint as well? I'm not sure if the upper stripes disappeared because the camouflage was added or afterwards. Maybe contemporary 361st FG planes can give a hint.

 

I built Lou IV several years ago in 1/48 with overpainted stripes 🙄. Just in case you aren't aware, there is one rare picture of the starboard side (Athelene).

 

Cheers, Michael

 

[silberpferd]

On 09/10/2018 at 22:14, stevej60 said:

Hi folk's,building Revell's 1/32 mustang as the well documented Lou iv and thought of showing her in full D-Day stripe's as I can't remember seeing a model

done without the painted out upper wing stripes as she was  when  seen  in the now  famous group of photo's as they were painted out I suppose no issue

building her thus? Also what thought's on her carrying bomb's rather than clean or with  drop tank's ?

Hello,

 

Regarding the bombs question, I gave a quick look in my copy of "Yellowjackets, the 361st F.G. in WWII", and they started to make ground attack missions on June 7th, until June13th, when they resumed doing escort missions again. Colonel Christian was flying a P-51B at the time, "Lou III", and I cannot tell you if Lou IV was in service before June 13th. They only flew escort missions from that date, until the stripes were painted over on upper surfaces (which happened between the last week of June and the first week of July for most 8th AAF fighter groups).

 

HTH,

 

Laurent

[stevej60]

Many thank's Micheal and Laurent,the more information I get the more it seem's maybe sticking with the box scheme is the way to go, certainly it was well

into August that Col.Christian was killed so if the aircraft was bombed up for the mission the stripes would be painted out and possibly the aircraft was all

NM at the time the full stripes were worn.

[Toryu]

Another picture of Lou IV shows her with invasion stripes painted out and with narrow yellow nose ring.

 

This allows for approximately 5 different schemes:

1. All natural metal
2. Full invasion stripes added
3. Olive camouflage added
4. Upper stripes painted out
5. Yellow nose extended

She may have been delivered from depot to group with scheme 3 directly. Or scheme 4 may have come together with scheme 3.

Anyway, a lot of changes for just under 8 weeks operations...

 

There is a 1998 article from IPMS Stockholm that may be interesting, too:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1998/05/stuff_eng_ww2incolor_louiv.htm

 

Happy modeling, Michael

[Graham Boak]

I'm unconvinced by the argument that the leader of a Group on a bombing mission wouldn't be carrying bombs - there was nothing like Bomber Command's Master Bomber in use in tactical aviation, and there must be considerable doubt whether it would work anyway.  He was shot down leading the attack, not holding off and guiding it.  It is possible that for a pre-planned target a number of aircraft would attack with guns only to suppress flak, but a couple of well-aimed bombs would be more effective, and his wingman would surely have mentioned this anyway?

[silberpferd]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm unconvinced by the argument that the leader of a Group on a bombing mission wouldn't be carrying bombs - there was nothing like Bomber Command's Master Bomber in use in tactical aviation, and there must be considerable doubt whether it would work anyway.  He was shot down leading the attack, not holding off and guiding it.  It is possible that for a pre-planned target a number of aircraft would attack with guns only to suppress flak, but a couple of well-aimed bombs would be more effective, and his wingman would surely have mentioned this anyway?

That's the way it was. The leader was carrying bombs just like his men, and Colonel Christian was carrying bombs the day he was killed, as stated in the group history.

[stevej60]

8 hours ago, Toryu said:

Below another picture of Lou IV with invasion stripes painted out and with narrow yellow nose ring (top plane on the right).

That's a photo I've never seen despite looking at load's lately Michael great find,notice the vent below the engine panel's seem to be painted over too,certainly

a good selection of scheme's to choose from.

[Sonoran]

On 10/12/2018 at 8:03 AM, Graham Boak said:

I'm unconvinced by the argument that the leader of a Group on a bombing mission wouldn't be carrying bombs

 

For a very good reason - they did carry them in almost every case.  

[stevej60]

Hi folk's,my Mustang build is going well but as I near the end of the painting I'm getting paranoid over a couple of thing's and wouldn't mind a few opinion's.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not a rivet counter or that serious a modeler it's a fun thing but I'd like to do this build justice,I decided after Toryu's superb

photo to go for Lou iv as I think she would have looked on D-Day in full stripes and without  the  extended yellow cowl.

 

Now the question's,there is a black stripe on the lower surface of the tailplane's but photo's after the stripe's were overpainted show a lighter

shade on the upper surface's as if those stripe's were originally white would you agree? I've seen a stunning build of the Tamiya kit on Hyperscale

of the aircraft as depicted by Revell in their colour call out but the builder has it as if full wrap around fuselage stripe's were originally painted

on personally I can't recall  many Mustang's painted in this way what are your thought's? And finally Revell suggest the anti glare panel in front

of the windshield be painted black, I thought this was more a post war thing as the USAF transitioned to jet's.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

My thoughts & opinion say the Anti-glare panel was OD with the 361st. Other colors have been seen with other groups. For full wrap around stripes here are some examples. From the 361st.

From the 4th Fg.

“Mildred/Nooky Booky” from the 357th.

Another 352nd mustang B/C.

“Cripes a’Mighty” from the 352nd.

same plane from a different angle.

From the 339th Fg.

The 354th.

Not a perfect showing but some did wear full stripes. I think the orders to paint out the top appeared in july/Aug./Sept. however i think many were ahead of the official orders. I guess its really up to the modeler? I hope this helps you. 

 

Dennis

Edited November 4, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Sonoran]

Notice that in all of these photos (and most other P-51 photos) the main gear doors are CLOSED when the aircraft is parked.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @Sonoran ... I didn't even notice that when i went through my files ? Good catch 👍 I guess we have a pretty good answer on that old question ? 

[gingerbob]

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I guess we have a pretty good answer on that old question ?

 

Not so fast.  First shot, engines running.  Several shots, pretty hard to see from behind.  Second shot of Cripes-a-Mighty you can see the port door beginning to creep open.  Last shot, the bare example farther back has doors creeping down.

 

On the tail stripe question, as some photos show, it should be white on camo or black on aluminium.  Perhaps when this one got camo'd they painted it white on the upper surface, but then later overpainted the stripe (when other top-surface stripes were overpainted?)

[stevej60]

8 hours ago, Sonoran said:

Notice that in all of these photos (and most other P-51 photos) the main gear doors are CLOSED when the aircraft is parked.

Yes,interesting worth thinking about.

 

5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hello @Sonoran ... I didn't even notice that when i went through my files ? Good catch 👍 I guess we have a pretty good answer on that old question ? 

Great photo's Dennis many thank's,I may well go the full stripe option as the whole  point of the build was to be a bit different from the usual depiction

of this aircraft.

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

 

Not so fast.  First shot, engines running.  Several shots, pretty hard to see from behind.  Second shot of Cripes-a-Mighty you can see the port door beginning to creep open.  Last shot, the bare example farther back has doors creeping down.

 

On the tail stripe question, as some photos show, it should be white on camo or black on aluminium.  Perhaps when this one got camo'd they painted it white on the upper surface, but then later overpainted the stripe (when other top-surface stripes were overpainted?)

Good point Bob we know the lower stripe was black it makes sense that pre the original OD being over sprayed the upper would have been black

so I need to show it on the model even though the wing's have not yet been painted out.I,m fitting the door's down to show of the lovely detail but

creeping down would be good to!

[Graham Boak]

6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

 I guess we have a pretty good answer on that old question ? 

 

I don't think so.  It just shows that however good the answers the real story gets lost with time.  The doors were held up by hydraulic pressure so were closed as the engine was running and immediately after.  As the pressure was slowly lost the doors crept down.  When the engine was fired up the doors closed again - with quite a bang, I believe, although that may have been exaggerated with time.

 

Unless someone has another explanation with evidence?

 

Early P51Ds were lost (including at least one locally from Warton) because the doors crept open in flight and were ripped off, leading to wing failure.  As a result I understand a bolt was fitted to hold them shut in flight.  So perhaps P-51D's doors stayed up on the ground?  Maybe...

[gingerbob]

Yeah, it's a warbird, but this video shows the wheel covers at startup:

 

 

[noelh]

It If the wheel well covers are up while on P51D is parked, it'll be because the pilot or perhaps mechanic after an engine run didn't release the hydraulic pressure on shutdown by pulling the emergency landing gear door handle release. Once the lever is pulled the doors drop relatively quickly. This also locks the landing gear handle in the down position.

When the engine starts they close as in the video above. 

But it's common to them closed in wartime photos which probably indicates releasing the hydraulic pressure wasn't SOP. Even so after sitting for a few hours there was probably a loss of pressure so they would droop anyway. 

Flaps were deliberately lowered to stop people stepping on them, a mistake to be fair they only make once as they'd get dumped unceremoniously onto the ground. 

Yet wartime pictures show them up when parked too. 

So up/ down locked/open. The choice is yours.