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A near sighted pencil in the dark


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After almost finishing the Eduard 1/48 Fokker DVII (it is standing forlorn on the shelf like an abandoned puppy, waiting for me to gather enough strength to eventually complete its wooden propeller), it is time for something different.

Not too different though, as it is still German and propeller driven, but this time it is the ICM 1/48 Dornier Do17-Z10 Kauz II night fighter.
I guess many know the Do17 "Fliegender bleistift" history, a surprisingly fast light bomber in its day, but the Z10 night fighter version was a rare one indeed.

Built to test the new infrared Spanner Anlage sighting system, it featured a infrared beam transmitter in the nose that would illuminate the target, and a sight scope for the pilot to aim at the target image displayed there.
 

The beam transmitter and receiver/sight scope is easily seen in this picture, together with the armoured windscreen: 

do17z-10_2_441.jpg

 

Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, the Spanner Anlage proved worthless as the range in which the targets became visible to the pilot was way too short to make it useful.

The pilot would probably be better off replacing the infrared sight scope with an ordinary telescope, and try to find the British bombers himself like an old skool pirate.

 

Yarrrr. :pirate:
 

So the Z10 ended up with just 10 examples being built, making it an interesting curiosity in airplane history.

The kit is ICM 1/48 DO 17Z-10, which has gotten very good reviews, so I`m praying for an easy build here. 

44461355954_024fa37917_b.jpg

 

This is both my first ever W.I.P and a project to learn new techniques, so if you are going to follow this I`d suggest you buy some Guinness at the bar, as lager could go flat and taste horrible in the time between updates to this thread. :hourglass:


 

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And just to completely undermine the last sentence in my O.P, here is the first update with some pics.

Together with the kit I have also bought the Eduard photo etched detail set, a bit dumb in retrospect as most of the detail will be difficult to see through the canopy, and the kits detail is good right out of the box.

 

But there is a problem already... The kit states the cockpit should be in RLM02 and RLM66, which sounds plausible, but the Eduard detail set does not match the Vallejo RLM02 colour at all, as you can see on the small paint sample in the picture:

31309643038_c131129010_b.jpg

 

So who`s wrong here? Or are they both right in their interpretation of the colour?

This will certainly make it a bit more complicated, I either have to mix up some paint close to the Eduard shade, or (shudder) try to carefully paint over and around the detail with the Vallejo RLM02. :dull:

Looking at a Wikipedia picture of the radio set, I`d say that Eduard may be on to something here:
170px-FuG_10_radio_Dornier_Do_17_Z_1.JPG

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Well, I have done some research into RLM 02 online. Of the colours I`ve seen in the charts, Vallejo is pretty close to the Ullmann 2008 shade, while Eduard is close to nothing else but the picture of the radios I posted above. 

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_comp2.shtml

Since I like that colour, and it is close enough to Vallejo Primer Grey, I will trust Eduardos research and spray the cockpit Vallejo Primer Grey. I may go over the photo etched parts with a mist or wash of diluted Primer Grey afterwards, to carefully blend the photo etched parts into the rest of the cockpit.

I`m sure it will work out somehow, every mistake made will just add to my experience :)

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Have glued some parts together while pondering how to do this.

I won`t spend too much time super detailing the cockpit, partly because it will be difficult to see, mostly because I`m not really capable. :blush:

 

But I will add some stuff where I feel it could do with a bit more detail, and the first bulkhead after the cockpit looks like it could do with some scratch built stuff.

 

I assume the bulkhead at the bottom of the picture isn`as barren in real life as it is in the kit?

44508557074_f4705847fa_b.jpg

 

I have ordered the Dornier Do 17/Do 215 (Monographs) book as a reference, but it won`t arrive for another 3 weeks, so until then I am at the mercy of the internets or fellow modellers. :smile:  

 

So far my Google searches has let me down, haven`t found any pictures of the rear of the cockpit or that bulkhead.

 

Would anyone happen to have a picture/drawing of the rear of the cockpit, or the bulkhead itself?

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The Eduard cockpit parts are closer to RLM66, which is what I think the colour of the cockpit of the Dornier 17 should be. Other internal components (landing gear bay for example) would have been 02.

 

STrpbZD.jpg

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Thank you for the picture. :like:

 

The instrument panels looks like most variants of RLM 66, but the radio parts is much lighter in hue and looks sort of neutral grey. And wouldn`t a Luftwaffe cockpit in 1941 be overall RLM 02, with RLM 66 instrument panels, with the overall RLM 66 coming much later in the war?

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Sturmovik said:

Does this kit come with locating pins?

Yes. It is a high quality kit, and while it may be a bit fiddly to glue the fuselage halves around the cockpit, that is more Dorniers fault than ICMs.

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14 hours ago, Eivind Lunde said:

Thank you for the picture. :like:

 

The instrument panels looks like most variants of RLM 66, but the radio parts is much lighter in hue and looks sort of neutral grey. And wouldn`t a Luftwaffe cockpit in 1941 be overall RLM 02, with RLM 66 instrument panels, with the overall RLM 66 coming much later in the war?

 

 

 

No it depends a bit on the type. 109 and 110 cockpits did change from RLM02 to 66 around that time, but I'm rather convinced that bomber cockpits (Heinkel 111, Junkers 88, and Dornier 17s) were RLM66 from the start. I'm basing this conclusion on specific colour references in the Dornier 17 maintenance manual from 1937 that was discussed on Hyperscale a few years ago:

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/setting-the-cat-amongst-the-pigeons-early-luftwaff-t165426.html

 

From the discussion: "Relevant translations: Fuehrerraum bis Spant 7 (Cockpit back to frame 7): DKH-Einsichtmetallack (lacquer for metal) 432 Ton 66 and DKH-Einheitsverdunnung (thinner) E 52/50."

 

The conclusion: "Go back and look at what color the cockpit is painted... Ton (shade or tone) 66. And what, dear reader, is 66? That's right... Schwartzgrau. Not RLM 02, but Schwartzgrau. And when was this document printed? 1937. This should put to rest any questions about whether 66 was used on prewar aircraft, the answer is a most emphatic YES. Or "JA!", if you prefer."

 

 

 

 

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Very interesting, I will read up on that discussion!


But my problem still remains, as the instrument panel is a noticeably darker grey that the radio fronts. But anyho, I will paint the cockpit in an uniform colour that is as close to RLM 66 as I can get. 

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21 hours ago, Eivind Lunde said:

Yes. It is a high quality kit, and while it may be a bit fiddly to glue the fuselage halves around the cockpit, that is more Dorniers fault than ICMs.

I may give ICM another chance then.

 

I´ve read somewhere that Eduard´s RLM 66 rendition was too light. I´ll post the article if I ever find it.

Edited by Sturmovik
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5 hours ago, Sturmovik said:

I´ve read somewhere that Eduard´s RLM 66 rendition was too light. I´ll post the article if I ever find it.

It is certainly a dubious shade. I've used their p/e for the He280 cockpit, for the paint i've used Mr Paint's RLM66.

20181013_075604

The difference is quite noticeable, although the flash makes stand out more. 

The good news is, i've used their coloured etch previously and when you have the fuselage together you can barely notice.

Would definitely go along with Elger's good advice about cockpit colours etc.

I'll follow you along with your build as I fancy building one of the Do-17 nightfighters. 

The kit i'm really waiting for though is ICM's Do-217 nightfighter.

Tim.

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I recognize the problem with Eduard's coloured PE. What I've done is very carefully brush paint over the sections of the coloured PE that were supposed to be RLM66. Even a thin coat in that colour significantly how well the coloured PE blends in with the rest of the cockpit - not only does the colour become a closer match, you also cover that somewhat pixelated look that you sometimes see in Eduard's coloured PE.

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Great work so far. I'm following with interest as I also have an ICM Dornier on my to build list. Although probably a Battle of Britain version.

 

Just on the colour pe. I've also used quite a lot of this in recent builds and have found it very rarely matches the proper paint colours. I normally do as stated above and just painted over it. And as also stated above once the cockpit is closed up you hardly notice anyway.

 

Looking forward to more progress reports.

 

James

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I've been down the over painting the p/e route myself but like i've said when the cockpit is installed the difference is barely noticable so I don't bother any more, it hardly seemed worth the effort.

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On 13/10/2018 at 09:30, elger said:

I recognize the problem with Eduard's coloured PE. What I've done is very carefully brush paint over the sections of the coloured PE that were supposed to be RLM66. Even a thin coat in that colour significantly how well the coloured PE blends in with the rest of the cockpit - not only does the colour become a closer match, you also cover that somewhat pixelated look that you sometimes see in Eduard's coloured PE.

Yep, that has been my way of doing it too.

But I like how the pixellation makes the radio fronts look like they are hammer painted, and that is a way lots of old industrial/electrical equipment was painted, at least here in Norway.

 

So I`ll keep`em that way, and just mix up some paint to match the colour.
 

Edited by Eivind Lunde
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Painted the instrument panel Vallejo RLM 66 and sandwiched a clear plastic sheet between the photo etched dials and the instrument panel proper, to simulate glass.

I could never get clear gloss varnish to work properly, as fluid physics always pulls the varnish up around the edges and ruins the reflection.

It looked OK, but never completely satisfying.

 

The clear plastic is a marked improvement, as it reflects the light in the same way glass does, and the thickness gives the instruments a bit of depth too.

Sorry for the somewhat grainy pics. :sad:

45370612451_fc5d5d8592_b.jpg

 

Another pic from a slightly different angle shows the reflections better:

31494667968_0dcc96755f_b.jpg

 

I`ll clean up the edges and paint them RLM 66 too, and maybe I will add the more prominent switches and other stuff if I can be bothered.

It is hard to see that after the canopy has been glued on anyway.

 

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Not much work going on at the moment since I`m waiting for my reference book, but I do wonder about some parts of the ICM kit.

According to Wikipedia, the Z-10 model had 4x MG17 and 2x MGFF cannons in the nose, while keeping the MG15 machine guns in the rear cockpit and ventral position.
But Wikipedia sort of contradicts itself a few lines of text later:
"When the Z-10 was stripped of all non-night fighter equipment, it had a maximum weight of 7,300 kg (16,100 lb). Armament fit was similar to that of the Z-7, with an added MG 17 and an additional 1,000 rounds of ammunition in the nose section. "

 

So are there 2 variants of the Z-10 (3 if one include the lone radar equipped plane), with 4+1 and 4+2 gun noses?

 

44498407065_67c6ed098f_b.jpg

 

The ICM nose in the picture above has just 1 MGFF, and the instructions makes no mention of the ventral position MG15. :hmmm:

I see the Revell 1/72  Z10, which is an ICM rebox, has the ventral gun position in the box picture at least.

 

So what is the correct armament for a Z10 Kauz II?

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

My god, I see it has been nearly a month since I`ve posted an update here, but real life and a new job has taken its toll on me lately.
I have done a lot of research online and it is very difficult to find good pictures of the Z10 cockpit, and my Monograph "Dornier Do-17/215" reference book wasn`t of any real help in the matter either.

So when it comes to things like the breech of the MG 151 gun which likely protrudes into the cockpit, and other more obscure detail, I will just have to guess. 

But the book did have drawings with rivet plans, and that will come in handy if I dare to use this as my very first venturing into riveting. Which I most likely will, as I think the big wings and overall black colour of the aircraft makes for a pretty dull sight without the rivets.

 

So little actual work has been done, other than gluing the cockpit parts and spraying them dark gray. I have to say the ICM instructions are just horrible for the cockpit area, and I have spent just as much time trying to find out where the parts actually go as I have spent on the carpet looking for the small parts of Eduard photo etch that got away from me. :angry:

 

One thing that is clear is that the pilots seat is way too small, so I sourced a replacement seat from a stillborn 1/48 Henschel 126 project:

44953243075_794983c370_b.jpg

As you can see, the original seat on the left looks like a baby car seat in comparison.

Other than that, the rest of the cockpit is sprayed and awaiting the Eduard radio fronts and some amateurish attempt at wire detailing (another first for me!). :thumbsup:

45141991704_f84d4f7c32_b.jpg

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:19 PM, Eivind Lunde said:

Painted the instrument panel Vallejo RLM 66 and sandwiched a clear plastic sheet between the photo etched dials and the instrument panel proper, to simulate glass.

I could never get clear gloss varnish to work properly, as fluid physics always pulls the varnish up around the edges and ruins the reflection.

It looked OK, but never completely satisfying.

 

The clear plastic is a marked improvement, as it reflects the light in the same way glass does, and the thickness gives the instruments a bit of depth too.

Sorry for the somewhat grainy pics. :sad:

45370612451_fc5d5d8592_b.jpg

 

Another pic from a slightly different angle shows the reflections better:

31494667968_0dcc96755f_b.jpg

 

I`ll clean up the edges and paint them RLM 66 too, and maybe I will add the more prominent switches and other stuff if I can be bothered.

It is hard to see that after the canopy has been glued on anyway.

 

I'll pinch that idea if I may 😉

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20 hours ago, colin said:

I'll pinch that idea if I may 😉

Oh, by all means. :like:

You should use a sheet of thin plastic though. I used a bit thicker plastic taken from a blister pack, and while it gave the instruments a pleasant dept, it also made the panel thicker so I need to carve out a bit of plastic from the inside of the fuselage to make it fit now.

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  • 1 month later...

Well, I told you this would take time...
I have hated this kit for a while now, because I find it a bit frustrating to build due to the kit itself and a lack of useful reference photos for the Z10 cockpit (the few I`ve found makes me doubt the correctness of the ICM cockpit), combined with the general frustration that comes with photoetched micro parts.

I also suspect there were some germs hidden inside the box that gave me the dumbs the moment I opened it, because I have done lots of totally idiotic mistakes which has forced me to redo things, and that has just made me stop working on it because this hobby is supposed to be fun! :wtf:

 

But after staring angry at it for a month, thinking I should bin it and build something easy by Tamiya or maybe the Eduard Spitfire to get my mojo back, I pulled myself together and soldiered on with the cockpit.

The left hand side of the cockpit is pretty barren. I added some more realistic MG15 ammo containers to the back wall for detail, they should really be clipped to the top of the "shelf", but there is no way they will fit there since the kit back wall only vaguely resembles the real one. 

They are also taken from some resin MG15 kit I had lying around, since the kit ammo containers are just as overscale as the pilot seat is underscale. I built the little switchbox with two levers on the left and broke my finest drill bit trying to drill out a hole for the second lever that should be there, and decided after yelling and swearing that one lever was more than this kit deserved anyway. 
32645927778_07e7080f08_b.jpg

 

 The right hand side is much more busy, I didn`t do anything but adding the prominent electric cables that runs there and the cable attached to the yoke. 

The seat snatched from the HS-126 fits fine and is a big improvement over the underscaled kit seat. Should have made a square opening for the seat belts in the back of the seat, but.. you know... scr*w that. :wink:
32645927978_bfa3c5bbe6_b.jpg

I glued the fuselage together, and after test fitting the wings to the fuselage I can predict a lot of fiddling and filing to get  a good fit here.
Patience will be the key word.

But overall the cockpit ended up OK. Not my finest work, but it`ll do as it does look pretty busy when it all came together., and there are no open windows there anyway.
32645931048_a77b9d1ef5_b.jpg

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