Blenheim camouflage

[mhaselden]

Blenheims first flew in the night fighter role over the UK in June 1940 and the first overall black schemes followed from that operational usage.  Given that this image pre-dates May 1940 and is clearly overseas, I think it improbable that this airframe was originally in overall black.  If it was, it would certainly be unique in the annals of RAF camouflage.  

[rossm]

7 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

Everything imo points to an unofficial or as yet undocumented sand and Dark Earth scheme

 

- 

See my post #16 for my unscientific input which makes it hard for me to believe in two "earthy" colours giving this level of contrast but with a note that I cannot make even Temperate Land fit when you consider the relative tones of camouflage and roundel.

 

So wile I favour Temperate Land I'm still puzzled - we could be looking at non-standard colours or a non-obvious photographic process with unusual film, filter or even develolpment and printing which can affect contrast. There is also the possibility of an incorrect exposure but the quality of the print suggests that is unlikely.

 

Sometime, but not today, I'll try some wacky black and white conversion settings on a pic of a Temperate Land Scheme, probably the BBMF Lanc, and see what I get.

[Dave Fleming]

32 minutes ago, rossm said:

See my post #16 for my unscientific input which makes it hard for me to believe in two "earthy" colours giving this level of contrast but with a note that I cannot make even Temperate Land fit when you consider the relative tones of camouflage and roundel.

 

So wile I favour Temperate Land I'm still puzzled - we could be looking at non-standard colours or a non-obvious photographic process with unusual film, filter or even develolpment and printing which can affect contrast. There is also the possibility of an incorrect exposure but the quality of the print suggests that is unlikely.

 

 

 

I don’t think it’s a colour with a strong brown component, I favour something quite light, which wouldn’t respond to orthodox film in the same way as an earth shade. It could even be a light grey or blue, but I suspect not. I favour a very light stone/cream.

 

I can’t find the SAM article that preceded Lucas’ book on BoB colours, but he outlined the various shades used in mid-East trials in the late 30s.

 

I did similar a while back in Photoshop, It’s an interesting exercise in how colours can change, but in this case I suspect the light shade is one not found in the standard late war palate

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Dave Fleming

[Mark Mackenzie]

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[mhaselden]

The approximate dates of the high-contrast scheme would align with the appearance of the Blenheim in this photo...which means we can collectively ignore AMOs from August 1940 or later.  The challenge now is working out what colours may have been used in this high-contrast scheme.  I'd be delighted if any documentary evidence came to light but I suspect such detail may be hard to find (assuming the 45 Sqn F540 doesn't mention the colour scheme change).  

[fubar57]

In the Warpaint book "Bristol Blenheim" the same photo as linked in Post #1 is shown. The caption says "......It wears early desert camouflage.........."

[fubar57]

The book "Britain Alone- June 1940 to December 1942" has a chapter called "War in the Middle East - June 1940 - December 1941". This chapter starts with Tropical Land Schemes trials in Aden and Egypt: LT 2, LT 3 and LT 4. Colours mentioned for monoplanes are for LT 3, Dk. Earth and Dk. Red Sand. For LT 4, monoplane colours were Dk. Earth, Dk. Red Sand and Dk. Sea Green. Apparently there is photographic evidence of these being used by a variety of different types showing unusual colours. Mark, @mhaselden if you want, I'll send you the book later

[Dave Fleming]

Problem with those are that Dk red sand and Dk Sea Green are all tonally darker. It’s hard to see any of them matching the light colour shown in the pic (I need to dig the 45 Sqn book out to see which shape appears lighter - Dk green/Dark Earth can show a wide variety of tonal contrasts depending on film/filters/processing etc.)

 

This post from Edgar may (or may not) provide some stimulus for the debate 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Dave Fleming

[fubar57]

....but what if the colours were reversed, the Dk red sand and Dk Sea Green being the darker colour. As the book says, the camo was during trials. I also never posted the five or six other colours used

[Graham Boak]

Apparently the trials were prewar and plans for more trials were cancelled at the outbreak of war, with the AM's dogmatic ruling "Thou shalt all use DG/DE".   Understandably London had other priorities, but the overseas theatres had more time and incentive to explore other possibilities.  ME command are known to have made suggestions, resulting in Middle Stone and Azure Blue, through official channels. Outside these, they introduced at least one underside colour of their own, Iraqi or ME Blue,and the distinctive mottled scheme on fighter leading edges.  So it would be entirely within character for them to have tried another light colour on upper surfaces.  It is a little surprising to find it quite so widespread on so many different types and appearing outside the area yet without (at least as yet) any paper trail.  However in recent years research has uncovered wonderful things in the National Archives.

 

Until then I think it remains an open question but Occam's razor still biases me to fading.

[fubar57]

Again from the above book, "....As has already be mentioned, during the summer of 1939 a quantity of the materials necessary to camouflage aircraft in schemes LT3 and LT4 are known to have been shipped to the Middle East. The ultimate destination is not known, but photographs of aircraft taken in Aden and Egypt suggest that these materials were used mainly to camouflage pre-war types...." As always, official documentation is needed. From the book. "As far as is known, no Air Diagrams showing these schemes were ever prepared and the extent of their use is unknown. At the time of writing, no Vocabulary of Stores section 33B numbers have come to light for any of the Sand of Sea Green colours used in LT3 and LT4 schemes, but it would appear that as late as 23 April 1940, the Air Ministry still intended to use these colours as on that date a letter was sent to RAE on the subject of preparing standards for the new Type S finish.". So, not written in stone but plausible

[Dave Fleming]

It may have been Edgar that originally posted this information, sadly I have only saved the images and not the source, but an Air Ministry file (234693/33/R.D.M) of August 1938 mentions the need for trials with LT2, LT3 AND a Temperate Land Scheme for Aden. This is listed as a modification of the existing scheme with Dark earth replaced by a lighter colour. A later memo in reply  (Sept 38) lists this as 'C3' and 'C3B'

 

C3B is described as amended Temperate Land Scheme for Aden identical to C3A (Temperate Land Scheme) except for the substitution of the lighter colour Dark Sand for Dark earth. A drawing fo a Biplane in the 4 colour version of C3B is annotated 'Aden scheme'

 

However, these are just experimental schemes in 1938, so may not relate to what was applied in late 1939/early 1940

Edited November 26, 2018 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

On 11/21/2018 at 11:26 PM, mhaselden said:

Hmmm....good spot on the hatch surround.  However, the forward part of the hatch appears tonally lighter than the aft section.  That said, the aft hatch surround appears to have been repainted and is slightly darker in tone than the underlying shade.  This image is certainly hurting my poor brain.

 

That seems to be a feature of 'normal' Blenhiems too

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bristol_Blenheim_ExCC.jpg#/media/File:Bristol_Blenheim_ExCC.jpg

 

[Dave Fleming]

On 11/24/2018 at 10:17 AM, Mark Mackenzie said:

In the 45 Sqd history, 'The Flying Camels' by Jefford, dated photos of their Blenheims are given: On 4th August 1939, they are overall Dark colours of low contrast; On parade on 13th September 1939 they are painted in strongly contrasting Light/Dark colours; Then in early 1940, and in fact throughout 1940, they are shown back in the low contrast Dark colours. The author puts this down to experimentation, quoting the early AVIA documents.

 

With the Singapore Vildebeest in mind, perhaps looking in Middle-East documents for answers to the colours that some researchers on this thread advocate, and are adamant occurred, is not the right place and the answer might be found elsewhere in RAF documents for another theatre such as Far-East, Far-West Frontier, Malta?

 

Having now seen the Sept 39 photo, I'm more convinced that this aircraft is in a similar scheme (In fact the 4th aircraft in the line up shares the same pattern)

 

It also sheds a little light on the serials - the lead aircraft is serialled L8*** - L84** were Blenhiem Is, so could this be a case on an incorrectly applied serial post-painting? (L8423 appears to be a black out serial however)

 

I'm also wondering if the photo is earlier than 1940 - the presence of the B roundels is incongrous with a 1940 time period ( used 1938 to Nov 1939) , but then Sept 1939 is outside the time for type A R/W/B roundels as seen on the Jefford photo! But perhaps overseas cpommands did things differently!

Edited November 27, 2018 by Dave Fleming

[Graham Boak]

On 11/21/2018 at 6:18 PM, Dave Fleming said:

In the Blenhiem's case, the darker parts are the ones that would normally be Dark Earth. The obvious use of ortho film may have rendered it darker.

 

My problem with the 'fading' or weathering theory is, in the Blenheim case at least, it looks fresh - a little weathering/chalking on the upper wing but otherwise pretty pristine.

 

 

Dave, in the case of the Blenheim you are seeing an aircraft in the alternative mirror paint pattern - last time I looked at a number of these the pattern matched and it was the Dark Earth segments that appear light in this photo.

 

My latest extravagance is South African Air Force Fighter Colours Vol1.  East African campaign, by Piet van Schalkwyk and William Marshall.  It contains a large number of photos of aircraft in Temperate Land Scheme.  In the majority of these photos there is no sign of any high contrast between the uppersurface colours.  However this is not true of the Gladiators, which are clearly in "shadow shading" and in the majority of these photos it is very difficult to distinguish between the upper Dark Earth and the lower Light Earth, if possible at all.  These Gladiators have been handed over after considerable service in the RAF - one still carries the GO codes of 94 Sq.  In a photo taken after repainting one of these aircraft in the low demarcation TLS, this very high contrast has gone.

 

I know this is me banging on, but I still think the evidence is in favour of fading of prewar DE rather than some unrecognised ME HQ special.  Not that I'd put it past them, but it is difficult to see why they should be pressing London to approve Middle Stone when they were painting the aircraft with something lighter.  Why not Light Stone, in that case? 

[Dave Fleming]

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Dave, in the case of the Blenheim you are seeing an aircraft in the alternative mirror paint pattern - last time I looked at a number of these the pattern matched and it was the Dark Earth segments that appear light in this photo.

 

My latest extravagance is South African Air Force Fighter Colours Vol1.  East African campaign, by Piet van Schalkwyk and William Marshall.  It contains a large number of photos of aircraft in Temperate Land Scheme.  In the majority of these photos there is no sign of any high contrast between the uppersurface colours.  However this is not true of the Gladiators, which are clearly in "shadow shading" and in the majority of these photos it is very difficult to distinguish between the upper Dark Earth and the lower Light Earth, if possible at all.  These Gladiators have been handed over after considerable service in the RAF - one still carries the GO codes of 94 Sq.  In a photo taken after repainting one of these aircraft in the low demarcation TLS, this very high contrast has gone.

 

I know this is me banging on, but I still think the evidence is in favour of fading of prewar DE rather than some unrecognised ME HQ special.  Not that I'd put it past them, but it is difficult to see why they should be pressing London to approve Middle Stone when they were painting the aircraft with something lighter.  Why not Light Stone, in that case? 

 

Sorry Graham, I disagree, it’s not. (Unless you are suggesting there were C and D schemes on the Blenheim ?) on that demarcation pattern (stripe on starboard side of the fuselage going forward) the lower part of the fin was Dark Earth , As was the stripe through the turret.

 

 

 

And if it was fading, why has only the lower part of the antenna on top of the fuselage faded?

 

i agree it could be Light Stone.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Dave Fleming