Whirlwind colour paralysis

[rossm]

I've got a Airfix Whirlwind with green and medium sea grey on, masked ready for the topside grey. The photos I'm looking at are on p42/43 of the Allied Wings booklet by Crawfor & Listemann. As noted in the profile drawing on p25 there is more than one shade of grey on the topsides. The areas around the nose and engines seem to be in a darker grey than the rear fuselage/fin. In fact the darker grey is almost the same tone or slightly darker than the dark green.

 

I believe (from the Ducimus Camouflage & Markings booklet) 263 Whirlwinds were originally in what we know as Mixed Grey (7 parts MSG to 1 part Night) and Dark Green.

 

The darker grey areas coincide with those that would have been overpainted following the application of the special ID markings for Operation Starkey. Logically this would have been in the then freely available Ocean Grey but this usually shows up lighter than Dark Green.

 

The photos in the Allied Wings booklet appear to have been taken using a red filter as the red in the roundel is very pale.

 

My plan was to use Ocean Grey for the (presumably) repainted areas and something representing Mixed Grey for the rest but I'm assailed by doubts concerning the lack of contrast of the repainted areas with the Dark Green and I can't come up with any convincing ideas for what the darker grey would have been if not Ocean Grey.

 

My experiment with a red filter and the RAF Museum book colour chips below suggests it's just about possible that it could be Ocean Grey but I'd like to ask for alternative theories please, even if I don't promise to use them!

 

Also does anyone know a ready mixed colour equivalent to Mixed Grey or do I have to get myself covered in paint mixing my own?

 

[Graham Boak]

Mixed Grey was supposed to be a match for Ocean Grey, according to Edgar Brooks' research, so there cannot be any "premixed" match other than Ocean Grey itself.  If the mix wasn't quite so good a match, then it could be darker or lighter, which explains the varied comments about it.  Most examples I've been able to "identify" (with all due qualifications) have appeared darker, but then that's what I was lead to believe when younger so there may be some bias!  However there cannot have been any consistent amount darker or lighter, by the very nature of the process.

 

Engine cowlings sometimes to appear darker because of the heat from the engines.  I don't see why that should be the case for the nose.

 

However, if you are talking about areas that have been recently repainted then you are just seeing the difference between fresh and faded Ocean Grey, and rather than darkening the OG slightly for these areas you need to lighten the OG slightly for all others. 

 

Or simply paint it in OG/DG and have the model representing the aircraft immediately before the exercise.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Graham Boak

[sloegin57]

10 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Engine cowlings sometimes to appear darker because of the heat from the engines.  I don't see why that should be the case for the nose.

 

Possibly because there were four thumping great cannon pouring out heat when fired which transmitted itself to the outer skin and paint ?

 

Dennis

[Graham Boak]

Cannon fire for a few seconds, engine run continuously throughout the sortie.  I wouldn't have thought the cannon's heat would affect the paintwork,  otherwise we would see such effects on the wings of single-engined fighters.

 

In this case I think overpainting is more likely to be the reason.

[rossm]

24 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Mixed Grey was supposed to be a match for Ocean Grey, according to Edgar Brooks' research, so there cannot be any "premixed" match other than Ocean Grey itself.  If the mix wasn't quite so good a match, then it could be darker or lighter, which explains the varied comments about it.  Most examples I've been able to "identify" (with all due qualifications) have appeared darker, but then that's what I was lead to believe when younger so there may be some bias!  However there cannot have been any consistent amount darker or lighter, by the very nature of the process.

 

Engine cowlings sometimes to appear darker because of the heat from the engines.  I don't see why that should be the case for the nose.

 

However, if you are talking about areas that have been recently repainted then you are just seeing the difference between fresh and faded Ocean Grey, and rather than darkening the OG slightly for these areas you need to lighten the OG slightly for all others. 

 

Or simply paint it in OG/DG and have the model representing the aircraft immediately before the exercise.

My beliefs tally with yours and the Ducimus booklet suggests the "mixed" grey was also known as Ocean Grey in official documents which is probably what Edgar found. I think 263 aircraft were probably repainted while in service with the squadron, even if they may have gone elsewhere for the act, so there may be scope for an inaccurate mix.

 

I want to model an aircraft from the detachment to Predannack 20th-23rd March 1943 so dates are fixed.

 

Regarding heating from cannon, the dark grey extends to the side of the cockpit so not a viable theory but a good one to test out.

[Mr T]

'Mixed grey' was a mix of seven parts Medium Sea Grey to one part Night apparently. I tried that out with some Xtracyrlix on an Airacobra I built and was surprised by how close it was to Ocean Grey. Given that the nose panels on the Whirlwind were pretty large, it is possible they were swapped from another airframe or from spares and do a different paint date. 

[rossm]

5 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Mixed Grey was supposed to be a match for Ocean Grey, according to Edgar Brooks' research, so there cannot be any "premixed" match other than Ocean Grey itself.  If the mix wasn't quite so good a match, then it could be darker or lighter, which explains the varied comments about it.  Most examples I've been able to "identify" (with all due qualifications) have appeared darker, but then that's what I was lead to believe when younger so there may be some bias!  However there cannot have been any consistent amount darker or lighter, by the very nature of the process.

 

3 hours ago, Mr T said:

'Mixed grey' was a mix of seven parts Medium Sea Grey to one part Night apparently. I tried that out with some Xtracyrlix on an Airacobra I built and was surprised by how close it was to Ocean Grey. Given that the nose panels on the Whirlwind were pretty large, it is possible they were swapped from another airframe or from spares and do a different paint date. 

 

Fortified by those comments I mixed my own "mixed grey" from Tamiya MSG and black. Not sure the proportions were exactly right as I think the MSG came from a bottle I'd thinned but it came out similar darkness to Ocean Grey, just without the blue tinge of OG. This should make it lighter through a red filter so that seems like a result!

 

The darker grey doesn't seem to follow panel lines so I'm ruling out the swapping of panels.

 

Thanks both for giving me enough of a nudge to just get on and do it!