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Uk Wedgetail?


Slater

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On 10/5/2018 at 8:53 AM, Sundowner14 said:

I would guess that these would be personnel on Exchange, which is a long-standing arrangement that the U.K. has had with a number of armed forces around the world. Whilst there’s no harming in understanding the E-7’s capability, it’s a bit of lazy journalism in my view as the fact that we have RAF pilots flying the F-22 doesn’t mean that we’re about to buy a couple of squadrons. 

In this case it isn't. 

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3 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

A few thoughts.

 

The Tucano was seen at the time as a quid pro quo for Brazilian ‘help’ in the South Atlantic business in ‘82. Maybe PC-9’s would have been built in the U.K.? For a truly British answer there was the NDN Firecracker.

 

44453675495_15c0919191_b.jpg

 

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Wedgetail - from a spares point of view it makes sense following the Poseidon buy. As for Marshall’s being involved, that doesn’t necessarily mean modding a used airframe. KC330’s for example are all built as ‘green’ airframes and modded at Getafe. The Sentinels likewise were modded from stock at  However, if there are some low time preloved charter charabancs gathering dust, why not, after all the second hand VC-10 and Tridents didn’t fare too badly did they? 

 

The Poseidons on order are basically off the shelf with minimal changes. I’d assume Wedgetail (can we start a naming competition now please?) would be the same with the ‘British’ content coming down to assemblage and maybe the MK.2 upgrade in about 10 years time. 

 

Trevor

 

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I shared office space with the Wedgetail mob in the Middle East last year. From speaking to a couple of RAF lateral transferee’s into the RAAF who have worked the battle space management on both platforms, the Wedgetail is far more capable. Either way, something

needs replacing and there isn’t much choice out there.

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13 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

A few thoughts.

 

The Tucano was seen at the time as a quid pro quo for Brazilian ‘help’ in the South Atlantic business in ‘82. Maybe PC-9’s would have been built in the U.K.? For a truly British answer there was the NDN Firecracker.

 

44453675495_15c0919191_b.jpg

 

 

 

 


 

Shame we didn't go the Firecracker route. I saw it demonstrated against the PC-9 and the Tucano. Lets just say we bought the 'also ran'.

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The Firecracker didn't quite meet the specification (ias at low level wasn't high enough). We've now ended up (sort of) with the aircraft which was deemed the best choice some 30 years ago, using a training solution which possibly isn't the best choice...

 

 He Firecracker was a decent aircraft, just as the Tucano wasn't/isn't by any means a poor aircraft - but the fourth of Sir Sydney Camm's modern aircraft dimensions determined that the answer to AST412 wasn't the RAF's first choice.

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13 hours ago, mackem01 said:

We already have Airseeker, so my entry for this one is the Lookey-See.

Well, they run neck and neck in the silly name stakes, so it must be in with a shout.

 

With only about one new aircraft type entering service every decade (yes, I exaggerate slightly), you'd have thought the committee responsible for dreaming up new names for service aircraft might have done just a little better.  Sill, in these straitened times, I expect the task falls to a Clerical Assistant.  

 

PS I'll do it for free.  I think I could cope with the workload and stress.

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As to silly names, the RAF chose 'Atlas' for the A400 because it hadn't been used before. So said a senior RAF officer at some ceremony. Cue Ken Ellis, who was present, who informed him.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_Atlas

 

Egg falls off hat onto face.

 

Re the Firecracker, didn't know it was a tad slow, but by heck it gave the PC-9 a hell of a run for it's money in the air otherwise. Best display sequence outside a dedicated aerobatic aircraft I have ever witnessed, and I've seen quite a few.

 

Wedgetail comes from the Wedge Tail Eagle, Australia's biggest bird of prey, so it ain't a silly name.

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IIRC, there was also the Trago Mills SAH-1, paid for by a millionaire trash-and-tarry owner in Cornwall.  I understood that it performed pretty strongly but was eliminated owing to lack of industrial backing for production though (again IIRC) they did belatedly team up with somebody respectably serious.

 

Can any of our insiders confirm whether I recall correctly or was it never a serious contender?

Edited by Seahawk
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This is the SAH.1

 

30448668987_a08d4a372e_b.jpg

 

It wasn’t in the reckoning for that contract as it had to have jet-like handling. The Firecracker was originally a piston engined design but then had the PT6A strapped to it. This looks far too delicate for that! It may however have been in the reckoning for ab-initio training?

 

Trevor

 

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I really don`t understand this grief from Airbus/Saab about not considering their paper plane, i mean surely thats like Vauxhall moaning at me for buying a Ford in which case i`d be informing them where to stick it!

 

Or am i just a politically incorrect dinosaur?

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The prospect of handing another major contract to Boeing (so soon after the P-8 award) seems to be generating considerable heartburn. I'm not sure how much commonality is shared between Poseidon and Wedgetail, but both being 737 airframes you would think that there would be at least some. Which would have some positive logistics/support implications.

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3 hours ago, Slater said:

The prospect of handing another major contract to Boeing (so soon after the P-8 award) seems to be generating considerable heartburn. I'm not sure how much commonality is shared between Poseidon and Wedgetail, but both being 737 airframes you would think that there would be at least some. Which would have some positive logistics/support implications.

I'm pretty sure that's what the RAAF has found - not too sure on the electronic side of things but certainly the commonality would help maintenance on the airframe and engines. Not to mention having a common type rating for pilots. 

 

Probably doesn't hurt that the two biggest airlines here also have something like 160 737-NG flying between them

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I am no expert by a long chalk , but I don't think Erieye or any other such system can do what Wagtail can do. One cannot argue against the commonality issues of airframe, engine and flightdeck crew. So the MOD have to get the best deal possible because a competition would be costly and ultimately probably fruitless. Airbus may bring something to the market some time soon, but it's too late for the RAF .

 

Keith 

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The only thing I can see getting in the way of an RAF procurement of the Wedgetail is politics. Namely the Boeing led US decision to slap tariffs on rival Bombardier's C-Series passenger jet which may affect jobs in Northern Ireland.

 

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We really don’t know where the truth is on this and there does seem to be a bit of a rush which is never good.

MoD were challenged in Parliament about buying a plane, none of which have been built for 5 years, and which has some obsolete components. The response was basically “trust us we know what we are doing”. Doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Saab publishes a letter seemingly highlighting that no one from MoD has been in touch to ascertain what they can do with their system. They point out that the radar has been successfully integrated on 5 platforms so they have the experience to make it work on the A330.

MoD now claiming 2 aerials will be required due to size of A330 wing (shades of Nimrod AEW). But how have they reached this conclusion if they have not talked to Saab?

I get the feeling that no one in MoD has looked beyond Wedgetail, possibly because the only AEW embedded personnel are using that system.

As for logistics savings the A330 is already operated as a tanker and B737 will come in via P8 programme. So unless there are contractual issues over the A330 I don’t see this as an issue.

For me there are a lot of perfectly reasonable unanswered questions.

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On 10/16/2018 at 7:40 PM, Sundowner14 said:

What, there are no RAF personnel on E-7 exchange posts? Ok, fair enough.

Yes there are, but with the intention of forming a cadre of Wedgetail-experienced personnel rather than the normal exchange programme, much the same as the Seedcorn project to maintain experience in the maritime role. The RAF are planning in advance for the Wedgetail, as the original media article suggested.

 

And as much as I am loathe to see more work for Boeing, in this case I do not see any alternative that will be available in time and without forking out for development costs. Or will Saab and Airbus pay for the integration costs on the A330 or A320 themselves? Wedgetail works and is proven.

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1 minute ago, Truro Model Builder said:

Yes there are, but with the intention of forming a cadre of Wedgetail-experienced personnel rather than the normal exchange programme, much the same as the Seedcorn project to maintain experience in the maritime role. The RAF are planning in advance for the Wedgetail, as the original media article suggested.

 

And as much as I am loathe to see more work for Boeing, in this case I do not see any alternative that will be available in time and without forking out for development costs. Or will Saab and Airbus pay for the integration costs on the A330 or A320 themselves? Wedgetail works and is proven.

I hope we stick with the Wedgetail name. Atlas is a superb name for an airlifter, but I'm not so sure about Voyager, and as for Airseeker...:sick:

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7 hours ago, Truro Model Builder said:

I hope we stick with the Wedgetail name.

A bit unlikely, as it's an Australian bird - but Sea Eagle wouldn't be a terrible alternative and it has form with the UK military.

 

Just about all the other E-3s in the world are even older than ours and some are being broken up for spares.  What are the Americans, the French, NATO, and the Saudis planning to do?

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US Air Force E-3's have been incrementally upgraded over the years (primarily electronics) and new engines have been considered. But there doesn't appear to be an E-3 replacement on the horizon, and USAF doesn't appear to be overly concerned. Given that prehistoric B-52's continue to serve, I suppose that's understandable. 

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