Northrop Black Widow Question

[JohnT]

I am planning on building a 1/32 P-61 without the turret on top.  I have the Hobbyboss kit in 1/32 and the avionix resin for the gunners station.

 

I was wondering what changes in the gunners station at the rear would have been made with the deletion of the turret?  I gather the crew was reduced to two but would the rear compartment have been radically changed.  My sole book  the P-61 is no help and a google search threw up lots of interesting stuff but not an answer to this question.

 

I am guessing that if the turret was not installed on the production line then the rear compartment would not have been as well "furnished"?

 

Any of our USA members know?  Any pointers or help really appreciated.

[EwenS]

As far as I am aware, omission of the turret saw the gunner not being carried but no further airframe changes. EXCEPT. The 425th NFS in Europe carried out what was an unauthorised conversion (at least to start with) to move the radar operator from the aft position into the gunners seat immediately behind the pilot. This is described as a "unique" modification to that squadron's aircraft in Northrop P-61 Black Widow by Pape & Campbell.

That book has single photos of each position but unfortunately none of the revised 425th NFS set-up and no note of exactly how many aircraft had this carried out. Initial eqpt was P-61A-5 & -10.

So depending on the aircraft you want to model this may not be problem.

 

[JohnT]

Ewen

 

that's very helpful - many thanks.  I think I will leave the cockpit and gunners positions untouched but without the turret.  I suppose if they did it that way back in the day they could re-instate the turret if needed without further modifications.  

 

I did find a slight cheat to my possible dilemma.  I wanted primarily to do a green/grey aircraft rather than the usual black hence my expectation that it would be "turretless".  I did find a 1/32 Zotz decal sheet with a green/grey scheme aircaft with the turret.  The trouble is that sheet is OOP and a trawl on the usual sites does not show any of those sheets up for sale.  Cest la vie

 

Thanks again for the info

 

John

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

As far as I am aware, omission of the turret saw the gunner not being carried but no further airframe changes. EXCEPT. The 425th NFS in Europe carried out what was an unauthorised conversion (at least to start with) to move the radar operator from the aft position into the gunners seat immediately behind the pilot. This is described as a "unique" modification to that squadron's aircraft in Northrop P-61 Black Widow by Pape & Campbell.

That book has single photos of each position but unfortunately none of the revised 425th NFS set-up and no note of exactly how many aircraft had this carried out. Initial eqpt was P-61A-5 & -10.

So depending on the aircraft you want to model this may not be problem.

 

 

[EwenS]

Check out the www.joebaugher.com us fighters page for a tie up between blocks and serials and configurations.

A-10s were the first to be painted black on the production line. The A-5s that came to Britain in spring 1944 were OD/NG but were repainted gloss black very early on in their operational careers. That leaves the A-1 most of which went to the Pacific

Glad to be of help

[3DStewart]

Were the turret control columns and sighting systems removed with the turret? Retaining them would be odd and in addition to weight saving, their removal would make the radar operator's space less cramped.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

22 hours ago, JohnT said:

The trouble is that sheet is OOP and a trawl on the usual sites does not show any of those sheets up for sale.  Cest la vie

Have you posted down in the wanted section here ? Someone might have a set they would be willing to part with ? Or at the very least sell you those particular decals off of the sheet ? 

 

Dennis

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Have you posted down in the wanted section here ? Someone might have a set they would be willing to part with ? Or at the very least sell you those particular decals off of the sheet ? 

 

Dennis

Good call Dennis

 

I will do that

 

regards

 

John

[JohnT]

2 hours ago, 3DStewart said:

Were the turret control columns and sighting systems removed with the turret? Retaining them would be odd and in addition to weight saving, their removal would make the radar operator's space less cramped.

 

That was my worry Stewart.  Perhaps not so big an issue in 1/72 scale but in 1/32 it might look obvious.  I have still to check out that web site the Ewen mentioned above - life and stuff keeps getting in the road !

[EwenS]

22 hours ago, JohnT said:

 

That was my worry Stewart.  Perhaps not so big an issue in 1/72 scale but in 1/32 it might look obvious.  I have still to check out that web site the Ewen mentioned above - life and stuff keeps getting in the road !

I've been looking at the photos in the book I referred to but for those P-61As without a turret I really can't say for sure what the position is. Some look completely empty but some seem to have something there. Not necessarily the whole sighting system but at least a seat. But I may be imagining it all so I can't be certain. Generally the focus  of the photos is the pilots cockpit area rather than further aft.

As for Joe Baugher's site there is plenty of factual stuff but no photos.

[JohnT]

17 minutes ago, EwenS said:

I've been looking at the photos in the book I referred to but for those P-61As without a turret I really can't say for sure what the position is. Some look completely empty but some seem to have something there. Not necessarily the whole sighting system but at least a seat. But I may be imagining it all so I can't be certain. Generally the focus  of the photos is the pilots cockpit area rather than further aft.

As for Joe Baugher's site there is plenty of factual stuff but no photos.

Thanks Ewen

 

I rather feared that was likely to be the position.  I am thinking of revising Plan A and looking at a green/grey scheme with a turret to side step the potential problem  - what a cheat