DH60 Gypsy Moth...

[cngaero]

15 hours ago, John Aero said:

Indeed it is still extant.

 

Thanks to all for your comments.

 

John

 

 

 

Just simply gorgeous. 

Do you have an insight into the actual colour scheme for this John? 

[John Aero]

Keith.

 

The DH 50: It's always been of interest to me. especially the 50.J (Jaguar)You have to be careful of some Aussi ones as they are called 50.J's but they were not built as such but converted and are 50.J(Jupiter).

 

I presume that you're thinking of the Cobham machine (a 50.Jaguar) rather than the Puma engined versions. I have a little on the DH 50 but I don't know of any  decent drawings or really meaty information. I've just found some details on the cabin top in  a couple 1930's books and a a side view drawing in my Australian built Aircraft and the Industry twin volumes but irritatingly they have stuff scattered all over the shop. There was a drawing published in Flight but although it has some useful dimensions there is no wing rib spacing detail, However I think the next paragraph will illuminate. 

 

However reading between the lines and thinking de Havilland, (always look for the recycled parts) and comparing dimensions, in my opinion the wings are structurally identical to those of the DH.4 and Nine in span and chord. You can't use a DH.9a. The tail plane has a slightly narrower chord than the bombers and it is 3" longer span on the elevator tips.  There is a small difference in the DH.50 top wing, in that it has no root cutouts  and a chord wide centre section and the c/s tank varies on some versions of the 50.  The 50 rudder appears to be slightly taller, but essentially the same as the 9. the fin has a narrower base chord.  The fuselage structure, not withstanding the cabin top, has a straight line to the top rail, a la Moth, and does not have the down slope aft of the cockpit of the bombers.  I haven't checked the strut lengths yet.

 

So far in a nut shell.

 

John

 

cngaero:  I don't have a specific shade for the Grey, but it is a standard Moth colour scheme and nose trim line between the Grey and White.  Often the two colours on the trim line were separated by a thin Black, White or Red cheat line.  Happily not on this machine. The White and Silver(wings and tail) were again standard. Perhaps Roger ( Holden) might know?

[Roger Holden]

39 minutes ago, John Aero said:

  I don't have a specific shade for the Grey, but it is a standard Moth colour scheme and nose trim line between the Grey and White.  Often the two colours on the trim line were separated by a thin Black, White or Red cheat line.  Happily not on this machine. The White and Silver(wings and tail) were again standard. Perhaps Roger ( Holden) might know?

I've never come across reference to any standard colours being used on the DH60 series.  Yes, the trim pattern was standard, but I suspect they used up to a dozen different colours. I'm speculating they would have had a book with illustrations showing

a number of colour combos and customers could select from those.  There is better colour info on the earlier Moths recorded. By the time the 60G came about they were commonplace and being built in large quantities and original factory colours seem seldom to have been noted. Don't know if there are any surviving DH records of colours. Stuart McKay's various books sometimes mention the colours which must be based on something.

 

I'm fairly sceptical about the colours many restored aircraft use.  It's impossible to distinguish grey from various shades of blue in ortho photos and it's probably just someone's guess. 

  

[Britman]

Thank you John, I always had a suspicion there was a bomber lurking in that aircraft.  If I can come up with something convincing with with a bit of fettling on the bomber flight surfaces I will be very happy. Thank you for taking the time .

 

Keith 

[John Aero]

Keith,

 

I have just done a quick check and the wing gap of the DH.9 and the DH,50 are the same, so the 9's wing struts are good for the 50.   Also the prototype 50 flew with a standard production DH. 9 rudder (complete with the Red, White and Blue stripes) so I suggest that all subsequent machines were the same. I did say look for the recycled bits!

 

John

 

Re -Roger's post. I do have reference to Light Grey being offered as a colour option on a G.III in one of my Moth Club magazines (Editor S McKay). Also I was interested in the paint supplier Cellon or Titanine. I probably have the answer,if I look deep enough.

[Britman]

Thank you John. I feel more confident about my own thoughts on this idea that I have harboured for a while. 

 

Keith. 

[Anthony in NZ]

Hmmm, this is really interesting guys

 

I always wondered as well.  The DH50 operated by the NZPAF (I think ended up in Australia?) has always been a favorite of mine.  This really makes me feel more confident to buy a Wingnut DH.9 and cut it up.

 

Thanks for your research and knowledge!

 

Cheers

Anthony

[John Aero]

If there are any further queries on the DH. 50 I'll open up another thread and try to answer them there, so that they don't get lost in this one.

 

One of my favourite Moths is the wooden fuselage DH 60 G.III, or when fitted with the Gipsy Major engine, The Moth Major.  It is an easy conversion using a Tiger Moth fuselage with flatted sides married to Gipsy Moth wings. this one was at  Nottingham Tollerton in  1936 G-ACST It was pale Blue and Silver. This was described to me by the then young engineer standing by the nose. I believe the colour to be the very same as on the restored example G-ABZB still flying today  which is rare in having a dorsal fairing.

 

 

[John Aero]

An unusual Hi-speed Moth. Notice the differences?  It originally had smaller thin wheels.

 

John

 

[VH-USB]

10 minutes ago, John Aero said:

An unusual Hi-speed Moth. Notice the differences?  It originally had smaller thin wheels.

 

John

My friend Simon Kidston's DH60M Moth.

Originally owned by Simon's father Home Kidston.

 

Tim

[John Aero]

Thanks Tim. G-AAXG  was originally built for the DH company chairman, Alan Butler for the 1930 Kings Cup, in which it achieved second place.

 

John

[bigbadbadge]

Some lovely pictures John and a great car collection and model. I am glad to see you posting again and wish you a speedy recovery.

 

All the best 

Chris 

[stevehnz]

5 hours ago, John Aero said:

An unusual Hi-speed Moth.

Is this the one that resided in NZ for a time, I can recall seeing it or one similar at an air show & thinking what a very pretty aeroplane it was.

Steve.

[k5054nz]

32 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Is this the one that resided in NZ for a time, I can recall seeing it or one similar at an air show & thinking what a very pretty aeroplane it was.

Steve.

It certainly is, Steve, formerly ZK-AEJ as seen in the WONZ thread. Gerald Grocott owned it for quite a while and while I was sad to see it go, it couldn't have gone to a better home.

[VH-USB]

23 hours ago, John Aero said:

Thanks Tim. G-AAXG  was originally built for the DH company chairman, Alan Butler for the 1930 Kings Cup, in which it achieved second place.

 

John

Hi John,

 

Thank you for the early history of G-AAXG.

Simon can't fly the Moth as he doesn't have a pilot's license but he's slowly taking flying lessons so, maybe one day.

There is some video of the Moth on Simon's website...

https://www.kidston.com/

Simon would like to reacquire airplanes and autos once owned by his father and, besides the Moth, Simon has purchased his father's 1938 Bugatti Type 57C.

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

[John Aero]

Hi Tim,

 

Thank you I enjoyed that Blast from the past. I immediately recognized Henri Labouchere, the Gunnery trainer at Langham and Holkham beach which our Spaniel Lucy loves. I've had a copy of Full Throttle since the 60's as one of my favourite cars is the Four and a half.

 

Lt Cdr Glen Kidston was sadly lost due to the early Puss Moth's wing flutter problems.

 

Lovely Moth. Ah well one can dream.

 

Cheers

John

[John Aero]

I've answered my own question re the DH dope manufacturer, DH types were almost exclusively painted with Titanine dopes, with an exception that the Cirrus Moths of the National Flying Service (Black and Orange) used Cellon Dopes.

 

John

 

PS, see my post in Interwar Military re Cockpit Green.

[John Aero]

Re the DH 50 answer in post 30.  I am guilty here of an assumption that Arthur Ord-Hume was correct in stating in his book 'British Commercial Aircraft', that in a photograph the DH 50 prototype had a standard DH 9 rudder fitted.  Well I have now done some drawing checks and if we are to believe the dimensions quoted in Flight for the tail plane chord (I do), then it cannot have been a standard rudder, as to fit the DH 50, the balance horn portion of the rudder must have  been shortened as the fin of the DH 50 is quite narrow in chord.  I will investigate further.

 

John 

 

 

Testing Photobucket  photo transfer.

 

[Noel Smith]

I don't think that anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but I am almost sure that 'Jason' belonged to the Shuttleworth Collection and was on display there for a considerable time before it was shipped to Australia. As far a I know it is now on static display at Kingston Smith Airport? Maybe someone can confirm?

The Shuttleworth Collection  probably has the most info in the UK on this one particular aircraft.

[Mr T]

The original 'Jason' is in the Science Museum, London, and has been there for a long while. At least according to the Science Museum website. I last saw about 20 years ago, very difficult to photograph as the Flight gallery is very dark. 

[Noel Smith]

Thanks for the update MrT. So what aircraft did go to Oz from the Shuttleworth? And was it a DH Moth of some description?

[Roger Holden]

42 minutes ago, Noel Smith said:

Thanks for the update MrT. So what aircraft did go to Oz from the Shuttleworth? And was it a DH Moth of some description?

It was Jean Batten's Percival Gull Six, which is now hanging up in an airport in New Zealand . Not sure why they parted with one of their most historic aircraft .....

 

You got the bit right about a famous woman pilot, though 😉