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1/32 - Avro Lancaster B.Mk.I/III by Border Model (ex-Wingnut Wings) - released


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45 minutes ago, colin said:

Can't see Border Lanc' holding it's price on the second hand market with these problems coming to light compared to WNW kits.

Maybe some bargains to be had in the future 😉😁

Well that’s one opinion I suppose!! From my point of view the number of problems is minimal. Admittedly the half done brass guns might as well not be there but very good replacements cost £20 or so. As for markings well there will always be aftermarket if you want it. I think the plastic is better than the HKM kit but how much would you be happy to sell your BorderNut kit for? Personally mine is not for sale for less than I paid for it and I suspect that demand will increase when Border say the moulds are shot! But it’s all a matter of opinion of course!! 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

Well that’s one opinion I suppose!! From my point of view the number of problems is minimal. Admittedly the half done brass guns might as well not be there but very good replacements cost £20 or so. As for markings well there will always be aftermarket if you want it. I think the plastic is better than the HKM kit but how much would you be happy to sell your BorderNut kit for? Personally mine is not for sale for less than I paid for it and I suspect that demand will increase when Border say the moulds are shot! But it’s all a matter of opinion of course!! 

 

 

 

My replacement guns arrived this morning, packed in a 6 x 4 x 2 inch box!

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1 hour ago, avro683 said:

My replacement guns arrived this morning, packed in a 6 x 4 x 2 inch box!

You mean Albion have sent you brass barrels with separate cooling jackets? Or do you mean Master barrels from the Big H or similar?

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20 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

You mean Albion have sent you brass barrels with separate cooling jackets? Or do you mean Master barrels from the Big H or similar?

Sorry Simon, I meant the Master barrels and I did order them from Big H. It must have been the smallest suitable box they had around. They are actually meant for the HK kit but should fit the Border one without issue.

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1 hour ago, avro683 said:

Sorry Simon, I meant the Master barrels and I did order them from Big H. It must have been the smallest suitable box they had around. They are actually meant for the HK kit but should fit the Border one without issue.

I have a set and had the same thought!! I don’t know how on Earth they make them!!

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4 hours ago, colin said:

Can't see Border Lanc' holding it's price on the second hand market with these problems coming to light compared to WNW kits.

Maybe some bargains to be had in the future 😉😁

 

3 hours ago, Simon Cornes said:

Well that’s one opinion I suppose!! From my point of view the number of problems is minimal. Admittedly the half done brass guns might as well not be there but very good replacements cost £20 or so. As for markings well there will always be aftermarket if you want it. I think the plastic is better than the HKM kit but how much would you be happy to sell your BorderNut kit for? Personally mine is not for sale for less than I paid for it and I suspect that demand will increase when Border say the moulds are shot! But it’s all a matter of opinion of course!! 

 

 

 

 

All I can say here is that I definitely got $600 of pleasure from my build.  The kit isn't perfect by any means and the instructions are infuriating... but it was an absolute joy to build.  I would build another in a heartbeat... if I didn't care about being married any more...  :D 

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3 hours ago, Mike Kiehn said:

 

 

All I can say here is that I definitely got $600 of pleasure from my build.  The kit isn't perfect by any means and the instructions are infuriating... but it was an absolute joy to build.  I would build another in a heartbeat... if I didn't care about being married any more...  :D 

Ah but if Colin's right Mike, you might be able to pick up a cheap second kit - but I'm not so sure about that!

I think we all know that if Wingnut had brought this kit to market then the instructions would have been light years better, as would the decals but would they have redesigned the clear parts to make them thicker to avoid the cold front problem - that none of us knew about until a couple of weeks ago? If they'd done that then they would have had to make the internal canopy framing slightly smaller and I bet that redesign would have added  maybe 6 months onto the release date. But is anyone else going to do a Lancaster in 1/32? I doubt it although maybe a clever 3-D printer could produce a thicker canopy master for clear resin casting and a replacement internal frame but if Ali doesn't think its viable then probably not! I think I'm happy with what I've got. Just got to build it now!!

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On 7/22/2022 at 5:40 AM, Ali62 said:

Hi guys 

 

Ok the update on the clear parts for the Lancaster.

I received a set of clear parts two days ago, and in a word I was ASTONISHED on how bad they are. Most of the problems could have been avoided if a little more care and polishing had taken place on the moulds. Ok we all know the story, but a little investment would have gone a long way to possibly making this a lot long lasting model that could be re-issued for years to come. Well we all know that more than likely in a few years you will get a handsome price when and if you sell your one, but what a waste in many ways, great lumps of plastic to sit in boxes.

One of the main stumbling blocks to be honest for me not to take this any further is the fact that the material thickness is mostly 0.5mm. Most canopies are at least around 1mm on kits and in general kit parts are between 1 and 1.5mm thick, that is the norm for most parts on injection moulded kits and there are reasons for that.

So with this very thin section, I cannot just polish and restore the canopies because I would not be able to cast and remove from the moulds with success at this thickness, especially for the size and the complex shapes of many of the parts.

To remake new masters from the kit parts and thicken them up is one option but that would take me a long time and I am sure then they would be fit problems when mating to other kit parts, so it would all become very complex.

So there is my conclusion to this project, sorry to have let you down, but rather sooner than later, and I also need to look after my interests in the first instance.

 

cheers Ali, happy modelling 

 

Hi Ali,

 

It’s very understandable why you can’t commit the time and effort into producing replacement clears for such a task, but I just want to thank you for taking the time to investigate the feasibility of the project.

 

To be honest, my clear parts are acceptable as is, and I’m sure that after a dip in a bowl of lemon scented floor polish they’ll look great, but is is disappointing that Border didn’t take a little bit of time to polish the moulds on such a magnificent kit.

 

I have wondered (as I’ve just ordered a new resin 3D printer), if it would be possible to give the parts a coat of gloss black, scan them, clean up the image in CAD and then print a mould to vac form them? It’s a project that’s ferments itself when I upgrade my creative brain via the use of vodka, and I certainly won’t be attempting it with this kit, but maybe I’ll try it with one of my SOD kits and see how it goes :)

 

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17 hours ago, Winded Penguin said:

Is anyone with this kit thinking of scratch building parts to fill in the gaps in the interior?

 

 

 

I didn't with mine.  The main omissions are in the center portion of the fuselage.  If you were planning to leave the crew door open I would be tempted to add in scratch built ammo boxes as they would be visible through the door, but if you have the door closed then you will never see them.  If you built it the way the CAD drawings show it (i.e. with the sides off and much of the interior visible, I think there would be a compelling argument for scratch building to fill the gaps.  The instructions don't cover it at all though and I wasn't anywhere near brave enough to take big risks with a $600 model.  I think there are a few misleading things about this kit: you can't build it the way the images on the box show it and as you note here it isn't really a 'full interior' by my definition of the word 'full'.  

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On 7/25/2022 at 3:59 PM, Mike Kiehn said:

I didn't with mine.  The main omissions are in the center portion of the fuselage.  If you were planning to leave the crew door open I would be tempted to add in scratch built ammo boxes as they would be visible through the door, but if you have the door closed then you will never see them.  If you built it the way the CAD drawings show it (i.e. with the sides off and much of the interior visible, I think there would be a compelling argument for scratch building to fill the gaps.  The instructions don't cover it at all though and I wasn't anywhere near brave enough to take big risks with a $600 model.  I think there are a few misleading things about this kit: you can't build it the way the images on the box show it and as you note here it isn't really a 'full interior' by my definition of the word 'full'.  

I agree completely, it’s very misleading. Given the size of the crew door it wouldn’t surprise me if the bed location isn’t visible too.

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10 minutes ago, Freelancer said:

There is a guy Christopher from Fischkopp model company who is working on a Dambuster conversion kit for the BM Lancaster

his website is on Facebook but does have images of wip.

 

https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=fischkopp model company

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alternatively there is the Iconicair conversion that is probably cheaper and may even be still  be available but was obviously designed for the HKM kit until HKM released that version. You pays your money and takes your choice I suppose but I prefer the ‘original’ Lanc if only for the extra turret and more scope for markings!! We are lucky to have dilemmas like this!!

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I've been reading some of the comments on this thread with interest. I also see there's somebody on one of the other parts of the forum that is undertaking a three Lanc build. I'll be following it with interest. I've been looking into the background of this model and the supplied instructions, issues with moulds, Border Models (BM) versus WingNut Wings (WNW) among other things. Let's start with my conclusion, this model was never finished by WingNut Wings, I'll elaborate on that and secondly I suspect that this is a one off unique opportunity for a kit with this level of detail (at least in my lifetime).

 

Firstly WNW; we know that Sir Peter Jackson was planning a DamBusters remake and if he does it via a series I'll be one of the first to sign up for whichever service streams it. Secondly he is also trying to build his own airworthy Lancaster. There's a YouTube video somewhere which shows a New Zealand company which is collecting the necessary parts and they have quite a number stored in a couple of warehouses including engines. Given that it's hardly surprising that WNW decides to bring out a Lancaster model with the same level of detail and dedication that they have shown to their other kits.

 

Unfortunately along comes Covid and New Zealand is closed down. Along with other stories of discord in the WNW management team the operation is closed down. The story, as far as I know, is that WNW was working with another Chinese mould company who after not having been paid by WNW sold on the moulds to Border Models. BorderModels then decides to make a go of it and launch the kit. There seems to be some legal wrangling in the background as to whether this is all above board or not but as that discussion has been going on for some time now and a kit has been released it would appear that something has to have been settled otherwise somebody in New Zealand (one of Sir Peter Jackson's other companies) would have been all over it and issued import embargoes. The Chinese may not respect intellectual property as we do in the west but a court in other parts the world could block import.

 

Just for interest some of the WNW staff are planning a restart under a company called Kotare Models.

 

It gets interesting when one starts looking at the instructions, that rather remind me of the old Japanese ones we used to see 40 odd years ago. They provide decals for three machines, Phantom of the Ruhr, Victorious Virgin and Guy Gibson's Lancaster.  In the case of Gibson's Lancaster, no Upkeep bomb. There are different parts supplied for a wide range Lancasters over a number of years (turrets, nose cones, antennas, flare chutes, gear, engines, etc.). To me this suggests that WNW were planning a number of versions but they still hadn't finished them, the 617 Sqn Lanc being an example of this. BM don't seem to know which options are associated with which Lancaster, they just provide a question mark in the instructions leaving it as an exercise for the modeller.

 

We've all heard about the issues with moulds and BM's work in improving various parts, perspex being a case in point. I suspect they bought the moulds but the tooling hadn't been completed. Chinese tooling shops are not the best with maybe one or two exceptions. Just making the mould is only half the work and it's a reason that a lot of European companies have an extensive tool room. BM has probably been behind the curve on completing the moulds so that they would function as required but now have something workable. In addition they don't have the R&D to complete the WNW work on say a DamBusters version of Gibson's Lancaster. I'm convinced that parts wise we're looking at WNW's work. The details is stunning and its this that is going to limit the volume of the release. That is unless BM has the skill to manufacture new moulds or have the original mould company make new moulds. Its for these reasons that I think we will only see a limited release of this kit. This is a one off chance to get something with this level of detail, get it early before BM decide to chance further runs with the moulds they now have.      

 

Apologies for the conspiracy theory type summary. It's just my opinion after putting some study into the kit and I could be wrong on a lot of things. I'm looking to make a version associated with our family hence the interest.    

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Interesting read, Reilly. For info, The majority of the Lancasters used in the Dams raid were converted back to standard so the configuration for AJ/G in 1944 as stated on the instructions is correct.

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3 hours ago, avro683 said:

Interesting read, Reilly. For info, The majority of the Lancasters used in the Dams raid were converted back to standard so the configuration for AJ/G in 1944 as stated on the instructions is correct.

The only elephant in the room here is that Border don't actually include the markings for AR-G ! (I don't think you can make it up from the other two decal options, before I outsmart myself!!)

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3 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

The only elephant in the room here is that Border don't actually include the markings for AR-G ! (I don't think you can make it up from the other two decal options, before I outsmart myself!!)

No elephant, markings for AJ-G ED932 are included in the kit, but don’t ask me the pilot because I don’t know who was flying in her then. I have invested in Fantasy Printshop codes and serials (no, I only have one kit for anyone wondering). The current plan is to model ED593 but I need to work out the best method of obtaining the nose art.

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4 minutes ago, avro683 said:

No elephant, markings for AJ-G ED932 are included in the kit, but don’t ask me the pilot because I don’t know who was flying in her then. I have invested in Fantasy Printshop codes and serials (no, I only have one kit for anyone wondering). The current plan is to model ED593 but I need to work out the best method of obtaining the nose art.

You must be a favoured one then because I've just looked and mine are for just BQ-B, EE139 and QB-V, RF128 only. Maybe Border corrected the omission part way through the production run? I still have my elephant!!

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11 hours ago, avro683 said:

Interesting read, Reilly. For info, The majority of the Lancasters used in the Dams raid were converted back to standard so the configuration for AJ/G in 1944 as stated on the instructions is correct.

 

Valid point. Given that in the second half of 1944 617 Squadron is involved in the attempts and eventual sinking of Tirpitz providing a grand slam might have been appropriate. 

 

7 hours ago, avro683 said:

No elephant, markings for AJ-G ED932 are included in the kit, but don’t ask me the pilot because I don’t know who was flying in her then. I have invested in Fantasy Printshop codes and serials (no, I only have one kit for anyone wondering). The current plan is to model ED593 but I need to work out the best method of obtaining the nose art.

 

After reading the comments on decals for 617 Sqn I had a look and indeed in my case there is a pachyderm in the box. Nothing for 617. Strangely enough we checked over all the parts for damage, nobody thought of looking at the decal sheet. I was planning to paint mine anyway rather than using the decals supplied. I do need to find out what size they were as that seems to have been whatever the squadron painted at the time. That brings me to the research needed for this kit. Fortunately it has all the options included but the hard part I have found is finding what was fitted to a particular aircraft at a set time. I'm going for 1943 which was a changeover for many radios, antennas, nose blisters, bomb sites, etc etc.. Research can be fun as well.

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Just now, Reilly said:

 

Valid point. Given that in the second half of 1944 617 Squadron is involved in the attempts and eventual sinking of Tirpitz providing a grand slam might have been appropriate. 

 

 

After reading the comments on decals for 617 Sqn I had a look and indeed in my case there is a pachyderm in the box. Nothing for 617. Strangely enough we checked over all the parts for damage, nobody thought of looking at the decal sheet. I was planning to paint mine anyway rather than using the decals supplied. I do need to find out what size they were as that seems to have been whatever the squadron painted at the time. That brings me to the research needed for this kit. Fortunately it has all the options included but the hard part I have found is finding what was fitted to a particular aircraft at a set time. I'm going for 1943 which was a changeover for many radios, antennas, nose blisters, bomb sites, etc etc.. Research can be fun as well.

I agree completely. My comments were made based on the instructions in the kit and side box art which both clearly show that the markings for ED932 are included in the kit, when the very obviously aren’t. I have apologised to Simon.

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54 minutes ago, avro683 said:

I agree completely. My comments were made based on the instructions in the kit and side box art which both clearly show that the markings for ED932 are included in the kit, when the very obviously aren’t. I have apologised to Simon.

No need! I was aware that there were only 2 marking options quite some time before I received the kit, it had been noted by someone on a Facebook page about 1/32 Lanc builds who had received the kit well before us in the U.K. ! Just one more if BM’s economies but not the most interesting of markings. Wonder if it was going to be an option in the Dambuster boxing that never was? 

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3 hours ago, Chuuurles said:

Just popping in to mention that my replacement clear parts came in but they were also broken during transit. Lucky models is sending another set of replacements. 

 

Bummer, I required a replacement set from Lucky, and as you know the packaging isn't the best.

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So having just read the latest Wingleader volume on the Lanc (volume 15) I see that the one thing that Wingnut missed on their very extensive clear sprues was a 'Rear View Cupola' which fitted under the nose directly behind the bomb aimers blister and was there so that he could presumably remove or slide back the oval glazing under the nose behind the blister and stick his head out to look backwards! Who would have thought and wouldn't a mirror have been easier??? Note not fitted to all airframes so check your references and hope your chosen airframe doesn't have one! Or else crash mould one or find a convenient teardrop canopy you can adapt! Something I've never noticed before.

 

Next up is to check the serial blocks for the various markings that Kits World do to see whether they're late, middle, early or whatever!!. A very useful volume, this Wingleader 15!

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