1/32 - Avro Lancaster B.Mk.I/III by Border Model (ex-Wingnut Wings) - released

[Simon Cornes]

4 minutes ago, Learstang said:

Don't worry Simon about mine - I have not intention of binning it. Now to add something of value to this discussion. I have both the Bordernut Lanc and the HKM Lanc and I can say that although the Bordernut clear parts are remarkably thin, the HKM clear parts are by no means thick, and I think thin enough for this scale. If it's the thinness of the Bordernut clear parts that made them have the cold fronts (which really don't bother me overly as they're not that visible), then I think they made a mistake in making them so thin. This attempt to replicate some sort of scale thinness is also contributing to the breakage problem. The parts really are quite thin. Sometimes having parts a bit overscale is a necessary compromise.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

Very true Jason. But its typical Wingnut - pushing the limits. As you say, the cold front thing is not that big a deal and I am happy enough. Whether I would buy an Ali replacement, I don't know but I am guessing that casting a fairly thin clear part which has a lot of 3D detail might be very challenging from an air bubble point of view. I think Ali suggested that there might be a lot of wastage and that contributes to the pretty high unit cost. Up to the individual I suppose!  

[Learstang]

Yes, I'd be tempted if Ali came out with a set, but I'm not waiting on it. What I really want is a proper A-26 canopy in 1/32nd scale, but that's a whole other can of worms.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Simon Cornes]

9 minutes ago, Learstang said:

Yes, I'd be tempted if Ali came out with a set, but I'm not waiting on it. What I really want is a proper A-26 canopy in 1/32nd scale, but that's a whole other can of worms.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

I'd think that you have a better chance of that with Ali - probably a much larger market of potential buyers? I was tempted by an A-26 (based on the old Airfix kit as usual!) but it just wasn't 'core' enough for me. Besides that there are so many aftermarket sets for it, it must be very basic out of the box?!!

[elderly]

Despite opting for the $20USD Slow Boat From China, mine has unexpectedly 

and surprisingly swiftly arrived on my doorstep in the UK today……

….. the slow boat was obviously steaming full ahead.

I was truly excited when I saw what the knock on the door had brought me,

but then really trepidatious about opening it to reveal canopy etc. damage.

 

However, No clear parts have been damaged in transit, but there are a small number of clear parts with those ‘cold front’ fine lines in them;

they are most noticeable in the bomb aimer’s blisters, but you do have to be looking for them under the right lighting conditions for them to be annoying.

 

I’ve not taken any other sprues out of the box ( for fear of  NEVER getting them back in ),

but the instructions are not obvious to see - for any of you brave souls that have unpacked your kits,

are the instructions at the bottom?

Edited July 20, 2022 by elderly

[Simon Cornes]

33 minutes ago, elderly said:

Despite opting for the $20USD Slow Boat From China, mine has unexpectedly 

and surprisingly swiftly arrived on my doorstep in the UK today……

….. the slow boat was obviously steaming full ahead.

I was truly excited when I saw what the knock on the door had brought me,

but then really trepidatious about opening it to reveal canopy etc. damage.

 

However, No clear parts have been damaged in transit, but there are a small number of clear parts with those ‘cold front’ fine lines in them;

they are most noticeable in the bomb aimer’s blisters, but you do have to be looking for them under the right lighting conditions for them to be annoying.

 

I’ve not taken any other sprues out of the box ( for fear of  NEVER getting them back in ),

but the instructions are not obvious - for any of you brave souls that have unpacked your kits,

are the instructions at the bottom?

Thats great news ! Yes, the decals, instructions and 'naked' brass machine gun barrels are all in the bottom of the box! 

[elderly]

4 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

Thats great news ! Yes, the decals, instructions and 'naked' brass machine gun barrels are all in the bottom of the box! 

Thanks Simon;

I’m tempted to remove the two clear sprues, turn the box upside down, then lift the bottom part of the box off to get at the instructions and look at the decals …….. after that , I MIGHT be able to get the bottom back on over the ‘tower’ of sprues, and if not, at least the sprues will be in the correct order to attempt to re-pack them …………… hmmmmmmm 😬.

[Simon Cornes]

1 hour ago, elderly said:

Thanks Simon;

I’m tempted to remove the two clear sprues, turn the box upside down, then lift the bottom part of the box off to get at the instructions and look at the decals …….. after that , I MIGHT be able to get the bottom back on over the ‘tower’ of sprues, and if not, at least the sprues will be in the correct order to attempt to re-pack them …………… hmmmmmmm 😬.

I thought about photographing the sprues as I took them out but I eventually removed the sprue bags from just one side to get to the bottom and then I only had half of them to replace in the reverse order. I think I managed okay but I won't do it again. I also photocopied the plans - twice - and returned the originals to the box so as not to 'damage' the originals then I can study the plans to my hearts content! I won't be opening the box again until I start building and will remember not to stack anything on top in the meantime so as not to risk breaking something on the clear sprues! 

[Mike Kiehn]

Hi, new forum member here!   I have been following your discussion in excitement awaiting the arrival of my kit.  Mine arrived about a month ago and I have finished building it.  I wanted to share some gotchas that I encountered in the build in the hope that it might help you guys.  The major one is with the bomb bay doors.  If you build it in the order that Border provide in the instructions it is impossible to fit them without removing the attachment flange,  I did this as I found out late that it was an issue but to get the doors to remain attached so I had to build new metal struts that I drilled into the bomb bay to get a secure fit.  I have a gap, but it is what it is.  A frustrating find.  They also don't tell you to add in the curtain for the navigator's station which is unfortunate as it would have been a nice feature, is included on the sprues, and is something that was important in use of the bomber.  The metal gun barrels for the front and top turret do not fit through the apertures in the clear plastic which must be widened, they look good with the open barrel ends but the plastic ones have more detail.  It is what it is.  Now we get to the biggest issue... the decals... they are absurdly thin and once laid down on model cannot be safely moved.  As such be really careful with the bigger ones which are a nightmare!

If you are interested in pictures you can check them out on my Insta: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgK4ie4uu0O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link 
 

[Simon Cornes]

2 hours ago, Mike Kiehn said:

Hi, new forum member here!   I have been following your discussion in excitement awaiting the arrival of my kit.  Mine arrived about a month ago and I have finished building it.  I wanted to share some gotchas that I encountered in the build in the hope that it might help you guys.  The major one is with the bomb bay doors.  If you build it in the order that Border provide in the instructions it is impossible to fit them without removing the attachment flange,  I did this as I found out late that it was an issue but to get the doors to remain attached so I had to build new metal struts that I drilled into the bomb bay to get a secure fit.  I have a gap, but it is what it is.  A frustrating find.  They also don't tell you to add in the curtain for the navigator's station which is unfortunate as it would have been a nice feature, is included on the sprues, and is something that was important in use of the bomber.  The metal gun barrels for the front and top turret do not fit through the apertures in the clear plastic which must be widened, they look good with the open barrel ends but the plastic ones have more detail.  It is what it is.  Now we get to the biggest issue... the decals... they are absurdly thin and once laid down on model cannot be safely moved.  As such be really careful with the bigger ones which are a nightmare!

If you are interested in pictures you can check them out on my Insta: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgK4ie4uu0O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link 
 

Well done for getting it finished Mike. 

You mention that the instructions tell you to fit. the bomb doors at a particular point. If that's incorrect when would you say is the correct point?

I'm compiling a parts list so I'd be grateful if you would tell me which part the navigators curtain is please?

We were expecting the brass gun barrels to have separate jackets but I think most people only have the barrels without jackets. I'm surprised that the brass parts are actually larger in diameter than the plastic ones? As it stands I've bought a set of Master barrels which were originally produced for the HKM kit but I think they should fit well enough (I hope!) 

I imagine you'd recommend lots of water under the decals until they're in the right place? 

All good information - thank you!

 

Simon

 

 

[Ali62]

Hi guys 

 

Ok the update on the clear parts for the Lancaster.

I received a set of clear parts two days ago, and in a word I was ASTONISHED on how bad they are. Most of the problems could have been avoided if a little more care and polishing had taken place on the moulds. Ok we all know the story, but a little investment would have gone a long way to possibly making this a lot long lasting model that could be re-issued for years to come. Well we all know that more than likely in a few years you will get a handsome price when and if you sell your one, but what a waste in many ways, great lumps of plastic to sit in boxes.

One of the main stumbling blocks to be honest for me not to take this any further is the fact that the material thickness is mostly 0.5mm. Most canopies are at least around 1mm on kits and in general kit parts are between 1 and 1.5mm thick, that is the norm for most parts on injection moulded kits and there are reasons for that.

So with this very thin section, I cannot just polish and restore the canopies because I would not be able to cast and remove from the moulds with success at this thickness, especially for the size and the complex shapes of many of the parts.

To remake new masters from the kit parts and thicken them up is one option but that would take me a long time and I am sure then they would be fit problems when mating to other kit parts, so it would all become very complex.

So there is my conclusion to this project, sorry to have let you down, but rather sooner than later, and I also need to look after my interests in the first instance.

 

cheers Ali, happy modelling 

[Mike Kiehn]

1 hour ago, Simon Cornes said:

Well done for getting it finished Mike. 

You mention that the instructions tell you to fit. the bomb doors at a particular point. If that's incorrect when would you say is the correct point?

I'm compiling a parts list so I'd be grateful if you would tell me which part the navigators curtain is please?

We were expecting the brass gun barrels to have separate jackets but I think most people only have the barrels without jackets. I'm surprised that the brass parts are actually larger in diameter than the plastic ones? As it stands I've bought a set of Master barrels which were originally produced for the HKM kit but I think they should fit well enough (I hope!) 

I imagine you'd recommend lots of water under the decals until they're in the right place? 

All good information - thank you!

 

Simon

 

 

 

The navigator's curtain is part F4.  The only place where the bomb bay doors would work as designed would be at the step labelled 'Bomb Bay' and would come after attaching the main spars to the assembly.  It certainly has to happen before the two parts of the fuselage are attached in step 'Rear Fuselage'.   If you look at the bomb bay doors you will see the issue with the large unfinished flanges which need to go between the fuselage and the bomb bay.  The instructions are really vague but suffice to say that as written they don't work!  With respect to the metal guns it's the much large muzzles that cause the problem.  They must be twice as wide as the plastic ones!  The other problem I had with the guns was that the barrel of the metal part is basically as wide as the plastic receiver of the gun, it makes it essentially impossible to drill out a hole for them and so I had to simply butt joint them - far from ideal.  Re. decals I used Tamiya Markfit Strong under them, but it was still dicey.  I have no ideas where my 'Phantom of the Ruhr' scroll went which was hugely disappointing, but life goes on. 

 

Also of note parts O34 and O31 were absent from my kit (part of the engine cowling. 

I am happy to provide any more insight you would like.  It's a great model but not without its foibles! 

[Mike Kiehn]

45 minutes ago, Ali62 said:

Hi guys 

 

Ok the update on the clear parts for the Lancaster.

I received a set of clear parts two days ago, and in a word I was ASTONISHED on how bad they are. Most of the problems could have been avoided if a little more care and polishing had taken place on the moulds. Ok we all know the story, but a little investment would have gone a long way to possibly making this a lot long lasting model that could be re-issued for years to come. Well we all know that more than likely in a few years you will get a handsome price when and if you sell your one, but what a waste in many ways, great lumps of plastic to sit in boxes.

One of the main stumbling blocks to be honest for me not to take this any further is the fact that the material thickness is mostly 0.5mm. Most canopies are at least around 1mm on kits and in general kit parts are between 1 and 1.5mm thick, that is the norm for most parts on injection moulded kits and there are reasons for that.

So with this very thin section, I cannot just polish and restore the canopies because I would not be able to cast and remove from the moulds with success at this thickness, especially for the size and the complex shapes of many of the parts.

To remake new masters from the kit parts and thicken them up is one option but that would take me a long time and I am sure then they would be fit problems when mating to other kit parts, so it would all become very complex.

So there is my conclusion to this project, sorry to have let you down, but rather sooner than later, and I also need to look after my interests in the first instance.

 

cheers Ali, happy modelling 

 

 

In honesty I was not impressed with the clear parts BUT I will say that when they are in place on the model you don't really notice them that much.  I found that putting it together was a great pleasure and that the process was worth the sticker price to me.  'Your mileage may vary' though as we say over here  

 

[Ali62]

22 minutes ago, Mike Kiehn said:

 

In honesty I was not impressed with the clear parts BUT I will say that when they are in place on the model you don't really notice them that much.  I found that putting it together was a great pleasure and that the process was worth the sticker price to me.  'Your mileage may vary' though as we say over here  

 

Mike you have done a great job and building it so quickly is very impressive.

From my perspective for me to try and develop a full set of clear cast replacement canopies would just not be viable and then the guys that would buy them would want perfection for spending even more money.

[Mike Kiehn]

2 minutes ago, Ali62 said:

Mike you have done a great job and building it so quickly is very impressive.

From my perspective for me to try and develop a full set of clear cast replacement canopies would just not be viable and then the guys that would buy them would want perfection for spending even more money.

Ah sorry, I am new here.  I didn't realise that you were looking into developing a product for sale.  I can see how that would be an issue especially for such a limited run kit.  

 

[Mike Kiehn]

On 7/13/2022 at 2:42 PM, Simon Cornes said:

This might interest some people, it has certainly kept me occupied for a few days!

 

I have compiled a parts list. Basically I have gone from one end of the instructions to the other and made a list grouped from 1 to ..... for each sprue. Why?  Well the sprue maps in the instructions are practically useless and I was interested to know if there were any 'unused' parts on the sprues which might indicate another release - maybe a Dambuster? In truth, if the moulds only last for a short run then maybe Border won't get that far ! 

 

This is sprue A:- 

 

 

1 Gee whip aerial mount / Drift recorder

2 Z Equipment rings to fit into bomb aimer’s blister - 2 of (Post June 1944)

3 Vertical component - left hand cockpit sidewall / component fitting to F9

4

5

6 Nose turret - gun mounting part

7

8 Nose turret - gun mounting part

9 Nose turret - internal frame - left

10 Control columns yoke

11 Navigator’s angle poise light

12 Control panel at left of bomb aimers position forward nose

13 Bomb sight component

14 Bomb sight component

15 Pitot tube - late - from Mid 1944

16 DF loop

17 Rebecca aerial - late - vertical dipoles - 2 of (mid 1944, replaces Lorenz)

18 2 of - bomb aimers equipment tubular frame

19 Forward Mandrel aerial pole -100 Group only

20 Bomb sight component

21 Frame for bomb aimers camera

22 Left hand cockpit floor (below pilot’s seat) vertical support

23 Unidentified component and pipes fitted to right rear of pilots seat floor

24 Radio gear

25 Nose/Upper turret - internal frame for reflector gun sight

26 Cockpit floor below pilot’s seat - right hand

27 Window dispenser - late 1943 - right lower nose

28 Step from leading edge of mainplane to cockpit floor

29 Navigator’s seat

30 Pilot’s seat - back and base padding - no belts

31 Pitot tube - early — before mid 1944

32 Vertical pole - attaches to G10 navigator’s table

33 Unidentified component fits to left fuselage side above radio operators position

34 Nose turret ammunition box x 2

35 Bomb aimer’s equipment

36 Bomb aimer’s floor padding

37 Cockpit instrument - attachment to left front canopy frame

38 Unidentified box - port side of cockpit wall above navigators station

39 Vertical part in front of DF loop (Late 1942)

40 Vertical part behind DF loop

41 Unidentified component fitted to roof above radio operators position 

42 Throttle/Propeller box

43

44 Nose turret ammunition box x 2

45 Radio gear and navigator’s gear

46 Pilot’s seat - back and base padding - moulded belts

47 Right Browning .303 - nose/upper turret

48 Left Browning .303 - nose/upper turret

49 Bomb release controls - right side of bomb aimers position

50 H2S component

51 Pilot’s seat rear armour plate

52 Oxygen bottle - rear of pilot’s seat/ below navigator’s seat / at right of bomb aimers

position     

53 Bomb Aimer’s position - left fuselage side frame

54 Bomb Aimer’s position - right fuselage side frame

55 Bomb Aimer’s position - left fuselage side frame

56 Bomb Aimer’s position - left fuselage side frame

57 GEE component

58 Nose turret - gun mounting part

59 Bomb Aimer’s position - right fuselage side frame

60 Bomb Aimer’s position - left fuselage side frame

61 Bomb Aimer’s position - right fuselage side frame

62 Bomb Aimer’s position - right fuselage side frame

63 Nose/Upper Turret - right hand component

64 Nose turret - gunner’s seat

65 Nose turret internal frame - right

66 Nose/Upper  turret left hand component

67 Nose turret - gun mounting part

68 Nose turret - gun mounting part

69 Bomb aimer’s arm rest

70 Nose turret - gun mounting part x 2

71 unidentified component on left hand cockpit side wall

72 Elevator trim wheel mechanism (at side of pilot’s seat) left side

73 Elevator trim wheel mechanism (at side of pilot’s seat) right side

74 Nose turret - gun cradle

75 Nose turret - left gun turret elevation bearing

76 Nose turret - right gun turret elevation bearing

77 Nose turret - gun mounting part

78 Nose turret - gun mounting part

 

 

As you can see - gaps! Now I haven't got any bits out of the bags to know what they are and I have an idea that some bits may have been wrongly identified, for example I'm sure that part A1 - the drift recorder at least - is on one of the clear sprues because it looks clear in the instructions but no doubt someone can say what the missing/unused bits are? Oh and I might have misidentified some things or deliberately simplified things but the list might be useful as the build progresses. I also appreciate that Neil in his You Tube videos may well have already mentioned all of this but I haven't had the time to watch the videos yet! 

 

If you want a copy of the list, which runs to 12 pages of A4 and shows that there is no Sprue E (we have E1) or H - then PM made and I will email you one.

 The drift recorder is C1-25

 

[Simon Cornes]

1 hour ago, Mike Kiehn said:

 

The navigator's curtain is part F4.  The only place where the bomb bay doors would work as designed would be at the step labelled 'Bomb Bay' and would come after attaching the main spars to the assembly.  It certainly has to happen before the two parts of the fuselage are attached in step 'Rear Fuselage'.   If you look at the bomb bay doors you will see the issue with the large unfinished flanges which need to go between the fuselage and the bomb bay.  The instructions are really vague but suffice to say that as written they don't work!  With respect to the metal guns it's the much large muzzles that cause the problem.  They must be twice as wide as the plastic ones!  The other problem I had with the guns was that the barrel of the metal part is basically as wide as the plastic receiver of the gun, it makes it essentially impossible to drill out a hole for them and so I had to simply butt joint them - far from ideal.  Re. decals I used Tamiya Markfit Strong under them, but it was still dicey.  I have no ideas where my 'Phantom of the Ruhr' scroll went which was hugely disappointing, but life goes on. 

 

Also of note parts O34 and O31 were absent from my kit (part of the engine cowling. 

I am happy to provide any more insight you would like.  It's a great model but not without its foibles! 

Thanks for confirming the location of the Drift Recorder. Regarding the nav's curtain, are you sure its F4? I have that as the back of the nose turret. Now if you said A4 that would make sense as I haven't found A4 on the instructions. Or A5 or 7 for that matter! I will have a look at the instructions re the bomb door issue, thank you for clarifying. I wonder if you are supposed to fit the brass gun barrels from outside the assembled turrets? Of course the real things are withdrawn from the turrets for cleaning by pulling them inboard so the muzzle should be small enough to go through the slot! Odd that two intakes for the tops of the cowlings were missing - one port and one starboard . Was the sprue short shot?

[avro683]

25 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

Thanks for confirming the location of the Drift Recorder. Regarding the nav's curtain, are you sure its F4? I have that as the back of the nose turret. Now if you said A4 that would make sense as I haven't found A4 on the instructions. Or A5 or 7 for that matter! I will have a look at the instructions re the bomb door issue, thank you for clarifying. I wonder if you are supposed to fit the brass gun barrels from outside the assembled turrets? Of course the real things are withdrawn from the turrets for cleaning by pulling them inboard so the muzzle should be small enough to go through the slot! Odd that two intakes for the tops of the cowlings were missing - one port and one starboard . Was the sprue short shot?

According to my instructions F2 is the back of the nose turret and F3 is the housing. F1 and 4 are the front gun frames, left and right. It sure is a minefield!

[KITCAT]

Well it appears to me that any attempt to re do an ex Wingnut Wings kit brings problems. Salute Wingnut Wings quality and weep.

Oh and by the way it took me 10 minutes to sort out out my Meng triplane but will I buy another?

[Simon Cornes]

10 hours ago, avro683 said:

According to my instructions F2 is the back of the nose turret and F3 is the housing. F1 and 4 are the front gun frames, left and right. It sure is a minefield!

Yes - you are right, I can't read my own list! But that still leaves the question of the part number for the Nav's curtain?

 

 

[avro683]

50 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

Yes - you are right, I can't read my own list! But that still leaves the question of the part number for the Nav's curtain?

 

 

I *think* it’s on the clear sprue.

[Simon Cornes]

59 minutes ago, avro683 said:

I *think* it’s on the clear sprue.

Thank you - I don’t mind getting those sprues out!

[Mike Kiehn]

15 hours ago, Simon Cornes said:

Thanks for confirming the location of the Drift Recorder. Regarding the nav's curtain, are you sure its F4? I have that as the back of the nose turret. Now if you said A4 that would make sense as I haven't found A4 on the instructions. Or A5 or 7 for that matter! I will have a look at the instructions re the bomb door issue, thank you for clarifying. I wonder if you are supposed to fit the brass gun barrels from outside the assembled turrets? Of course the real things are withdrawn from the turrets for cleaning by pulling them inboard so the muzzle should be small enough to go through the slot! Odd that two intakes for the tops of the cowlings were missing - one port and one starboard . Was the sprue short shot?

Ah, next to F4 there is a part without a number hence my mistake.  That part is the curtain.  I don't think the engine intake sprue was short shot It was certainly frustrating at the time but utimately something you have to know is missing to miss... not great on a $600 kit though.

 

[Simon Cornes]

18 hours ago, Mike Kiehn said:

Ah, next to F4 there is a part without a number hence my mistake.  That part is the curtain.  I don't think the engine intake sprue was short shot It was certainly frustrating at the time but utimately something you have to know is missing to miss... not great on a $600 kit though.

 

Thanks for that Mike, I will make a note for my kit box on both points. It’s pretty unusual to have two small parts missing but it’s possible and in your case was a fact. I’d request replacements from your kit supplier if I were you, even though they’re minor - or you could make them from thin litho plate or lead foil maybe, even carve from thick card or spare sprue? At least it wasn’t t missing a large panel! 

[colin]

Can't see Border Lanc' holding it's price on the second hand market with these problems coming to light compared to WNW kits.

Maybe some bargains to be had in the future 😉😁

[Simon Cornes]

45 minutes ago, colin said:

Can't see Border Lanc' holding it's price on the second hand market with these problems coming to light compared to WNW kits.

Maybe some bargains to be had in the future 😉😁

Well that’s one opinion I suppose!! From my point of view the number of problems is minimal. Admittedly the half done brass guns might as well not be there but very good replacements cost £20 or so. As for markings well there will always be aftermarket if you want it. I think the plastic is better than the HKM kit but how much would you be happy to sell your BorderNut kit for? Personally mine is not for sale for less than I paid for it and I suspect that demand will increase when Border say the moulds are shot! But it’s all a matter of opinion of course!!