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AdriaN (MLT)

Mr.Finishing Surfacer - DOTTY DISASTER!

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Mr.Hobby's "Mr.Finishing Surfacer 1500 Gray", is a new primer to me...
I sprayed the 1:48 F-15e with it, thinned down with cellulose thinner, and.. firstly it kept getting stuck in the airbrush at 15/20 psi or barely coming out, so i had to turn the pressure up to around... 30 psi!
The result was horrible. the finish is like tarmac. when i touch it i keep getting dust on my fingers and it feels like sand paper! (see images)

I'm not too sure what went wrong here...

1. Could it be i didn't thin it enough? if so what are the percentages? 50/50?
2. Too hot? still hot over here. around 30 degrees. but garage didnt feel too hot as august.
3. What psi am i supposed to spray this primer at?
4. Am i supposed to spray it on WET? or dust it on first?

43102075940_1cc342c08a_b.jpg

 

44913868291_dda97354b8_b.jpg

 

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Funnily enough, on the small parts like air-brake, pods and missile racks went on beautifully. I sprayed these slow and in heavy wet lines.

 

44001611955_c1d533b6d3_b.jpg

Edited by AdriaN (MLT)
mistakes

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That is drying before it reaches the model. I would say that it’s still not thin enough. 

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Never had that problem. I use their Leveling thinner, but cellulose thinner should do the trick too. My guess is you didn't thin it enough or the thinner you're using evaporates too fast. I dilute mine to almost water consistency. If you still have issues add a drop of retarder? Also get a shot glass and make a small mix in there, just a few drops. Tilt the glass around and check to see if the primer is properly thinned. I've had Humbrol paint that went gritty with the wrong thinner.

As for technique I spray a mist coat and then go in with one wet coat. It always levels beautifully and leaves an almost satin, smooth finish.

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As it was mentioned before, this happens when it dries before it reaches the surface. Fortunately this can be fixed with a soft tissue, just buff it, most of "sand" will be gone.

There are a few tips how to prevent this situation

- blow from closer distance

- thin more

- add a couple of drops of Mr.Retarder, as the name suggests it slows down drying

- reduce pressure 

- all of above

 

13 hours ago, AdriaN (MLT) said:

Am i supposed to spray it on WET

No.

 

P.S.  Mr. Finishing Surfacer is a wonderful thing once you get accustomed. 

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maybe just a slight sanding... but to be honest... I'm jealous... I want this result to replicate anti-slip in 1/72... and I never get this result...

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Ok. thank you for the advice!
My problem is indeed.. i didnt thin it enough! i put in very little cellulose thinner. this is why i was spraying at 30psi.
The model has gone through a sanding session using a very fine sand paper and its smooth again.

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If you used hardware store cellulose thinner, that's way too hot and would cause the poorly adhering "powder coat". As mentioned above, just wipe it off. That's my standard primer; see my C-47 build in the Pacfic GB. Just thin to 1% milk consistency with Mr. Color Leveling Thinner. All Mr. Color needs to be sprayed close-in...5mm to 35mm. Should be a wee bit wet when it hits the surface; user a grazing light to monitor this. Mr Color is wonderful stuff, but you need to be careful applying it. 

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38 minutes ago, dnl42 said:

If you used hardware store cellulose thinner, that's way too hot and would cause the poorly adhering "powder coat".

Based on my university knowledge of chemistry I strongly disagree

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4 hours ago, Pin said:

Based on my university knowledge of chemistry I strongly disagree

That may well be, but that's my experience, so I suppose we'll disagree.

 

Peace.

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On another forum a nice how-to on diluting and nozzle sizes was published today. Maybe it is of interest:

http://www.hyperscale.com/2018/features/dilutionandnozzlejm_1.htm

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5 hours ago, dnl42 said:

That may well be, but that's my experience

You may have had negative experience but there are many factors besides thinner that may contribute to the result - pressure, distance, dilution ratio etc.; there is no single 'formula' for 'cellulose thinner' either so thinners from different manufacturers may be significantly different in chemical composition, therefore the statement that "cellulose thinners in general are too hot" is too far fetched. I have been dealing with Mr.Surfacer and various kinds of thinners for many years as I prefer Mr.Surfacer to other primers, recently I thin it exclusively with Tetrosyl Standard Cellulose thinner for the sake of cost effectiveness. A 5L canister of Tetrosyl costs £15, postage included, whereas 400ml bottle of Mr.Leveling Thinner is about 10£, the final results are indistinguishable. Would I recommend Mr.Leveling Thinner? Definitely yes, it surely works, however just be aware that there are much cheaper solutions that are just as good if you know how to deal with them.

 

Peace.

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What i find about cellulose thinner is... it evaporates VERY quickly! i drop it and you see it vanishing in seconds.

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On 9/27/2018 at 10:20 PM, Pin said:

Based on my university knowledge of chemistry I strongly disagree

Standard car type thinners are way too hot compared to Mr levelling thinner. Try thinning Tamiya x-22 clear with store thinner and apply over cartograf decals they just melt if your slightly too heavy with the coat.

You don't get that problem with Mr levelling thinner, thats my experiance with a Tamiya bike kit and zero paint thinners which are basically just the same as shop thinners

Don't have that problem using Mr Levelling thinner and x-22 over decals

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1 hour ago, colin said:

Try thinning Tamiya x-22 clear with store thinner

That is exactly what I mean when I'm talking about basic chemistry knowledge. People try to mix acrylics with white spirit, enamels with IPA and lacquers with water and then get disappointed when results do not match their expectations.

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You can mix Tamiya paint with lacquer thinners without any problems at all, if your just spraying over other Tamiya or even Gunze paints due to their make up, their acrylics but can be thinned with lacqure no problems even shop lacquer

But don't try sparying them over cartograf decals when thinned with shop lacquer, but Mr Levelling thinner doesn't have that effect on the decals, this seems to point that it isn't as hot (so to speak) lacquer thinner like shop, as in body shop thinners

 

Sorry but I don't think the chemistry bit you saying has anything to do with the question you disagreed too, which was shop thinner is hotter than Mr Levelling thinner

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The initial question was about thinning Mr.Surfacer, NOT thinning with Tamiya acryllics, spraying over decals or anything else. I disagreed with the point that thinning Mr.Surfacer with Cellulose thinner causes poor adhesion or premature drying. 

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6 hours ago, Pin said:

That is exactly what I mean when I'm talking about basic chemistry knowledge. People try to mix acrylics with white spirit, enamels with IPA and lacquers with water and then get disappointed when results do not match their expectations.

but the op didn't do any of the above, anyway we could go on about you chemistry knowledge all night, the point being the thinner is evaporaing too quickley before the paint hits the model, Mr levelling thinner has a retarder in it which helps prevent this is what the person who says it's too hot probabley means

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You can use Mr Levelling thinner on a cloth to remove paint from plastic parts without melting the plastic. Try that with shop thinner and you'll end up with a molten plastic blob. Mr Levelling thinners are quite gentle in the thinners league table...

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On 10/1/2018 at 11:24 PM, Steve Noble said:

You can use Mr Levelling thinner on a cloth to remove paint from plastic parts without melting the plastic. Try that with shop thinner and you'll end up with a molten plastic blob. Mr Levelling thinners are quite gentle in the thinners league table...

I  am positively in love with Mr Leveling ( but not the chap who uses it to clean his airbrush). There's even a technique where you drench the entire model in a mist of it after priming with Mr Surfacer 1500 that was truly incredible in getting a smooth finish that I tried  but decided was too toxic.

 

BTW I used to experiment with all kinds of thinners, if you think standard is too hot, wait till you give full gloss thinners a blast...

 

primervoodoo.jpg&key=62cf9bfd79750aeaaaa

 

Re the OP, dude its obvious you're blasting away from way too far away, come in to 2-10 cm, make sure the you have skimmed milk consistency and happiness will be yours. Watch some of @Paul Budzik's videos re spray-guns and you'll get the idea of wet on wet priming etc, its a lot easier than it looks. FWIW, despite my love of lacquer thinners I now use stylnylres and it aces any of my self made/bought lacquer based primers. 

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IME the ratio is important but correct mixing is equally so. A couple of turns with a cocktail stick doesn’t cut it; I give it a good ten seconds with my home made paint stirrer (an ikea coffee frother with the end snipped off and bent over). I use Mr Hobby primers all the time and never use the proprietary thinner - it’s bog standard £15 a gallon workshop cellulose for me. I spray a wet layer properly cut and mixed and never have this sort of problem.

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Looking at the photos I would say the primer is drying before hitting the surface leaving that dusty texture. If you are having trouble with the airbrush clogging and have to use a high pressure then it is also not thinned enough. Mr Surfacer 1500, 1200 and 1000 are very nice to spray if thinned correctly. I'm not so keen on spraying Mr Surfacer 500 but it's more of a spot filler/primer anyway so wouldn't normally be used that way (I had to give it a try though!).

 

Duncan B

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On 10/3/2018 at 8:40 PM, azureglo said:

Re the OP, dude its obvious you're blasting away from way too far away, come in to 2-10 cm, make sure the you have skimmed milk consistency and happiness will be yours. Watch some of @Paul Budzik's videos re spray-guns and you'll get the idea of wet on wet priming etc, its a lot easier than it looks.

SNAP!

 

I was just about to post this video as a reference for the OP.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dKHxv0gGo

 

EDIT:

 

Sorry. This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K8rO4Ei610 - But the previous one also covers some of the same stuff, and some other useful bits as well.

 

 

Edited by Matt_

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