White bands on SEAC Beau VIF night fighters?

[KRK4m]

Were the early 1945-introduced SEAC white bands around the wings and tail surfaces limited to the day fighters and strike aircraft (namely Hurricanes, Spitfires, Thunderbolts, Vengeances, Mosquitoes and Beaufighters TFX) or is it possible to find a night fighter Beau VIF (only No.89 and 176 Squadrons flew them in this area AFAIK) in DG/SGM scheme and white bands?

Having penetrated several books, dozens of magazine articles and hundreds of pictures I cannot understand while still in June 1945 the Ceylon-based Mk.VIF had no white bands painted on.

Any help will be appreciated

Cheers

Michael

Edited January 14, 2023 by KRK4m

[Tony C]

Only guessing here but would assume that as the Beaufighter was used in the nightfighter role, having white markings may not have been suitable, due to visibility issues!

[Giorgio N]

Night fighters (and 4-engined types) were explicitly excluded from the order to apply white (or blue on uncamouflaged aircraft) bands

[KRK4m]

22 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Night fighters (and 4-engined types) were explicitly excluded from the order to apply white (or blue on uncamouflaged aircraft) bands

Aaaah! Didn't know about it! Only 4-engined? So Wellingtons, Warwicks, Hudsons and Mitchells should have the bands applied?

Cheers

Michael

[Giorgio N]

20 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

Aaaah! Didn't know about it! Only 4-engined? So Wellingtons, Warwicks, Hudsons and Mitchells should have the bands applied?

Cheers

Michael

 

In theory yes, at least starting sometime after the issue of the order (IIRC January 1945) and ending with the end of the war.

[Graham Boak]

I've not seen any evidence of bombers (excluding Mosquitos) with these bands.  The Wellingtons were only operating at night, the Warwicks would be doing coastal work or transport - note that you don't see these bands on Dakotas either, and they would be seen much more often over the front line.  Any Hudsons around would be in the same two roles, and the PRU Mitchells would have gone from use - if not, the PRU aircraft didn't carry these bands either, did they?

[KRK4m]

So there have been much more exclusions than only 4-engined types  and night fighters.

BTW the coastal work wasn't the reason as there were white bands seen on Walrus amphibians.

Don't you think that wing span (Liberator, Halifax, Sunderland, Catalina, Dakota, Warwick, Wellington, Hudson, Mitchell - all measure over 65 ft here) could be the point?

Cheers

Michael

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that rather than just a matter of size, the white bands were carried on all armed aircraft that were operating (or were likely to operate) in or near the front line.  At this stage of the war it would exclude any large aircraft (other than the Dakota) anyway, as the use of light bombers had been superseded by the ubiquitous fighter-bomber.  The Walrus could or would be used for rescue missions in the front line, and as predominantly an FAA type in this theatre would be painted as the RN saw fit, anyway!

 

But I don't recall seeing any reference to a ruling on the subject.  If it is not in Eyes for The Phoenix, it may even be lost.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Giorgio N]

Eyes for the Phoenix mentions that the bands were introduced for all types in theatre except 4-engined types and night fighters. The same is stated in Lucas' volume on RAF postwar overseas based. No copy of the order is included in the book but the date January 27th 1945 is mentioned for the order.

No mention is made of mission apart from the night fighters and no mention is made of size of the aircraft.

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but can anyone point to such markings on coastal aircraft, transports, or trainers?

 

Thanks for the Eyes For The Phoenix account, which does not say "theatre" but specifically states "all aircraft of Eastern Air Command" which is not the whole of SEAC and can effectively be described by my first sentence above.  I suspect that the Dakotas in the area were actually under a centralised control of all transports in the theatre.

[Giorgio N]

Graham, good point, I misread the term Eastern Air Command. This included 3rd TAF and the Strategic Air Force.

I don't have a proper OrBat for SEAC at hand, I recall that transports may have  depended from a Group under direct HQ control. 

[tonyot]

I`ve seen bands on the horizontal tailplane of a Coastal painted Liberator,....... but not sure if this was just a mistake by the ground crew or a marking for something else?  

[Graham Boak]

 

Giorgio:  I didn't have an Orbat either, but did recall that the North West Frontier was under a different command, so putting all together it made sense.  The RAF Official history might describe the organisation under SEAC, if I can find my copy easily I'll check.  How much I was relying on a subconscious memory of such things I cannot say.

 

Tony: Given that 4-engine types were specifically excluded. it does seem odd.  The Japanese Army didn't have any four-engined types, so the reason for the exclusion is clear enough.  I wonder if they had black bands underneath?  Somehow I doubt it.  Now had you said Catalina...

[Giorgio N]

Graham, found somethng on the tranports and these were all controlled by Troop Carrier Command, originally headquartered at Calcutta and later at Comilla. This reported directly to Air Command, South East Asia. However in May 1944 Troop Carrier Command was placed under direct control of 3 TAF, that was part of EAC... now I don't know if this control was only operational or also administrative and if this lasted til the end of the war or not.

What is intetesting is that the PR force seems to have been directly under ACSEA as well, but we know that white bands were used PR Spitfires and blue on some Mosquito.

[EwenS]

There is a orbat tree in Appendix D of The Forgotten Air Force and another in The Source Book of the RAF, but unfortunately neither drill down to the squadron level. It gets a bit complicated as sub units control seems to have moved about from time to time as indicated by Giorgio.

 

However, as at January 1945 Eastern Air Command organisationally sat under Air Command South East Asia along with a number of other commands including, 222 Group in Colombo, 229 Group in Delhi and Base Air Forces SEA (with 223 Group in Peshawar NW Frontier, 225, 226, 227, 230 Groups). The latter controlled non-operational sqns in India, MUs etc.

 

EAC comprised:-

RAF Bengal / Burma (later AHQ Burma) seemingly responsible for non operational activities of EAC units

Strategic Air Forces (231 Group & 7th BG USAAF) of 4 engined heavies

PR Force (171 Wing & 8th PRG USAAF)

Combat Cargo Task Force (formerly Troop Carrier Command)

3rd Tactical Air Force (221, 224 Groups and various 10th USAAF Groups)

 

EAC formed in December 1943 and ceased to exist once the US units were withdrawn on 1 June 1945. Its responsibilities passed to its sub unit AHQ Burma. RAF Flying Training and Support Units makes no mention of it having control of any transport units, just the tactical and strategic bomber units.

 

Theoretically, based on the Eyes of the Phoenix info only the last 3 elements (except night fighters) should have carried the bands. As for 3 TAF this was mostly fighter types, both British & American, that complied with the order.  It also included B25s of the 12th and 341st (part only) BGs USAAF. The 10th AF history I have makes no mention of bands being applied to these aircraft or to the US transports forming part of the CCTF in discussing their markings.

 

Re night fighters there is a photo of Mosquito XIX TA230/N of 176 squadron in Halley's Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth 1918-1988 in silver finish with dark blue bands. This would be sometime between July 1945 and May 1946. Curiously the bands extend to the ailerons and rudder but not the elevators despite the original January order being amended to state that they should not extend on to control surfaces as it upset the control balance (again from Eyes for the Phoenix).

 

I've never come across any photos of RAF transports carrying these bands. By July 1945 most of the Dakota sqns were in 229 Group.

 

Maybe Giorgio is correct. EAC had operational control but 229 Group retained administrative control under ACSEA. That may have meant that EAC couldn't control their markings.

 

SEAC had some convoluted control structures for all 3 services and from the capture of Rangoon at the beginning of May 1945 these were subject to a lot of changes as units were moved around, re-equipped and the whole system restructured to take account of the withdrawal of USAAF units from RAF control with the conclusion of the Buma campaign and preparation for Operation Zipper.

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

Thanks Ewen, a lot of interestng and useful information !

 

[tonyot]

Michael PM`ed me asking for some info and photos of SEAC Beau`s,...... so here are some which I`ve found over the years for everybody to see too;

 

 

 

 

Night fighters are harder to find,.... but here are a few pics;

 

Cheers,

           Tony

Edited September 26, 2018 by tonyot

[KRK4m]

Oooooh, Tony!

20 photos of SEAC Beaufighters is really a pack worth considering. Of course I cannot be sure whether I see some things properly, so correct me if I'm wrong.

#1 A 1945 TFX with R individual letter in SGM, serial unknown, topside camo either TLS or TSS - cannot be sure

#2 A pair of TFXs in 1944, individual letters (V and B or R) in white outlined blue, serials unreadable, topside camo looks like TSS over Azure or Sky Blue.

#3 A 1944 TFX with M individual letter in SGM, serial unknown, topside camo looks like TLS (high contrast), but before repainting unersides in SGM (serial under the tailplane)

#4/5 A 1944 VIC with X individual letter in white outlined blue, serial unknown, topside camo TSS over Azure or Sky Blue

#6 The X8092 VIF from No. 27 Sq. in 1943, camo looks like TSS over Sky Type S (rare for the fighter variant), individual letter R in white

#7 A 1943 VIC with S individual letter (in yellow?), serial unknown, camo looks like TSS over Azure Blue

#8 A VIF taking off - year unknown (roundels not visible), serial and individual letter unknown, colours look like NFS of DG over SGM

#9 A 1944 TFX with W individual letter in SGM, serial unknown, camo looks like TSS over Azure Blue

#10 A 1944 TFX with white outlined blue B individual letter, serial unreadable, camo TSS over Azure Blue

#11 A 1944 VIC (?), serial unknown, individual letter O in SGM, upper camo in TSS

#12 A 1944 or 45 wrecked TFX with blue T individual letter outlined in white, serial unknown, camo TSS over some Blue

#13 Armourers in front of TFX serial NE645 in 1944, V individual letter in SGM, camo TLS over SGM

#14 Two 1944 TFXs with black individual letters H and S, serials unreadable, camo TLS over SGM

#15 The NV384 TFX in 1944 with M individual letter in SGM, camo TLS over SGM

#16 Fully described in attached colour profile

#17 The X7898 VIF of No. 89 Sq. in 1945, black G individual letter, camo NFS of SGM overall with DG on topsides 

#18 A pair of VIFs (one on the right has undihedralled tail like Mk IF) in 1943, serials, codes and colours invisible, but very dark appearance can suggest intruder scheme with black undersides

#19 A VIF in NFS of DG over SGM - year hard to define (no roundels visible), serial and code letters unknown

#20 The ND220 VIF of No. 176 Sq. in 1945 - NFS of DG over SGM, no individual letter

Awaiting your corrections, Gentlemen

Cheers

Michael