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Sunderland into Empire


DMC

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I currently reading Alexander Frater’s Beyond the Blue Horizon (good read) and the Short Empire flying boat has sort of grabbed my attention.  I’ve done a bit of research and am aware of the similarities between the Sunderland and the Empire as far as measurements are concerned but I am curious about the general overall shapes.   Obviously from the wing leading edge forward they are different but what about the planing hull, etc.   Could a Sunderland be converted into an Empire?  Gone just a little ga ga over seaplanes and flying boats 

 

Any Airfix Sunderland experts reading this?

 

Dennis

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Hi Dennis,

Can't help you with dimensions etc but if you want to save yourself the work of converting a Sunderland there is a kit of the Short S-23 C class flying boat available.

https://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/czech-master-resin-short-cclass-flying-boat-p-37236.html

It's an absolutely beautiful kit!

Welsh do a 1/144 vacform too.

Cheers,

Ian 

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The planing hull and general fuselage shape are also different, the fuselage being slightly shorter.  The wing is also changed - only slightly in span but more importantly in sweep by 4½ degrees, which also affects the engine mountings and nacelles..  This is a major enterprise - you would be better advised converting a Sunderland to a postwar Hythe or Sandringham for a civil flying boat..

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Thanks @Ian and @Graham Boak.  Kit looks pretty good, Ian, but a little out of my price range.  It’s the conversion that really interests me.  Well, Graham, I guess your information kinda shoots my idea all to heck.  It was the Empire and the old Imperial Airways route that I am interested in.  Still, if it were a closer match I might consider it.  Fools rush in where angels ...... and all that.

 

Thanks again for the timely replies.

 

Dennis 

 

 

 

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The planing hull on the Mk.I was closer to that of the C Class, and the difference in wingspan is so small that it may be due to little more than the change in sweep - and surely too small to be noticed?  So if you were to plan it then perhaps starting with the kit of the Mk.I - Itaeri I think? - might make a better start than the obvious Airfix.  I don't know whether the construction of the engine nacelles on this kit might make changing the sweep an easier option?

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2 hours ago, DMC said:

 It’s the conversion that really interests me.  

I can totally relate to that Dennis, I've done a few conversions recently and got so much more satisfaction out of them!

 

I remember reading 'Beyond the Blue Horizon', many years ago now, and thoroughly enjoying it. If you've not read 'Corsairville' by Graham Coster I can recommend that too, it's right up your street. You can pick up a copy from eBay for less than £2.

 

Cheers,

Ian

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 Some time ago I was studying possibility of such conversion (Airfix Sunderland to Empire) and I think it is feasible. I am close to start it. The wings comes more or less as they are but fuselage requires very serious surgery. Horizontal cut and at least two verical if upper half. The wings are shifted in reference tu hull and cockpit also goes forward, but the glass cockpit seems to go 1:1, only forwarded. I have to check it once more but this was my coclusion. I am also a bit ( ;) ) discourages by the big resin kit prices, therfore considered this conversion.

There are good drawings available in net:

091267ebf480bda93c077412ddaf5907.jpg

595-2.jpg

Regards

J-W

 

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Hi JWM,

 

I’d be quite interested to see how you managed this project.  I have done a little scratch building and would not hesitate in cutting into the Airfix kit fuselage.  It’s really the wing isn’t it that might present a problem?  I have the drawing (top) that you’ve enclosed and it looks pretty good.   However, it’s my understanding that the factory drawings were destroyed and these were put together from actual measurements, etc.  But you have to rely on something to get started don’t you?  And who’s to know if there’s something amiss anyway?

 

The two interior drawings are quite good but, except for the cockpit, I would not want to get bogged down again (I am old, time is priceless) in spending a lot of time on interior detail.   

 

Looking forward to to seeing you get started and thank you for your interesting reply.  

 

Cheers,

 

Dennis 

 

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This might be where I start talking out of my behind. I'm at work just now so no refs available, but I seem to remember something about the wings on the Sunderland being swept back( to correct CofG?) with little other change & this stayed so right through to the TEAL Solents which had the thrust line of their engines corrected for greater efficiency so maybe, taking the sweep out of the Sunderland wings would bring you close to an Empire wing with little other work? :unsure:

Steve.

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Hi Steve,

 

You are correct, according to Wiki the wing sweep was increased by 4.25 degrees to shift the c of g back to compensate for the extra weight of the tail turret (think I’ve got that right).  Easy to correct but seems that would knock the nacelles askew a bit.  Probably the best way to check would be to overlay the Airfix kit on the above plans.  Not impressed with what I’ve seen of the Italeri kit but only because of the deep scribing and heavy riveting.  Really starting to get into this now.  Much thought and research required, however.

 

Thank you for the input.

 

Dennis

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The point I was trying to make, not very well was,when the wings were swept back, the engines were not, AFAIK, realigned, but had a converging thrust line to the rear of the aircraft, of course my memory may be incorrect. :)

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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8 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

The point I was trying to make, not very well was,when the wings were swept back, the engines were not, AFAIK, realigned, but had a converging thrust line to the rest of the aircraft, of course my memory may be incorrect. :)

Steve.

It makes work a bit more difficult, but still it is feasible. You cut out entirely naceles and glue them on other angle... Perhaps another few grams of putty... :)

Thank you for awaring about this difference.  What I was  surprised - the redan (is it in English? - the hull step) positionin relation to wing,  Both are determined by position of center of gravity (but from aerodynamic or hydrdynamic rasons) so their relative position should be the same, but it is different between Sunderland and Empire. But the info on swept wings removes this paradox - the center of aaerodynamic force move backward for swept wings...

Cheers

J-W

 

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43 minutes ago, JWM said:

It makes work a bit more difficult, but still it is feasible. You cut out entirely naceles and glue them on other angle... Perhaps another few grams of putty... :)

Thank you for awaring about this difference.  What I was  surprised - the redan (is it in English? - the hull step) positionin relation to wing,  Both are determined by position of center of gravity (but from aerodynamic or hydrdynamic rasons) so their relative position should be the same, but it is different between Sunderland and Empire. But the info on swept wings removes this paradox - the center of aaerodynamic force move backward for swept wings...

Cheers

J-W

 

No, brother - just the opposite. The engines in Empire are parallel to the fuselage centreline (and the line of flight), while in SUnderland they are poitning outwards, like in Ju 52 3m. So you can use the Sunderland wing as a whole (unmodified) - just modify the wing/fuselage joint (the sinus of 4 deg is 0.07 which makes some 6mm insert needed for the 90mm wing chord in 1/72).

Of course the underwings floats must be realigned and the flaps (much larger in the Sunderland) rescribed on the underside.

Cheers

Michael

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1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

No, brother - just the opposite. The engines in Empire are parallel to the fuselage centreline (and the line of flight), while in SUnderland they are poitning outwards, like in Ju 52 3m. So you can use the Sunderland wing as a whole (unmodified) - just modify the wing/fuselage joint (the sinus of 4 deg is 0.07 which makes some 6mm insert needed for the 90mm wing chord in 1/72).

Of course the underwings floats must be realigned and the flaps (much larger in the Sunderland) rescribed on the underside.

Cheers

Michael

Thank you for this advice, of course prior to start any sculpturing of the plastic I always study drowings.... More by the phone :)

 

Best regards

JWM

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2 hours ago, KRK4m said:

No, brother - just the opposite. The engines in Empire are parallel to the fuselage centreline (and the line of flight), while in SUnderland they are poitning outwards, like in Ju 52 3m. So you can use the Sunderland wing as a whole (unmodified) - just modify the wing/fuselage joint (the sinus of 4 deg is 0.07 which makes some 6mm insert needed for the 90mm wing chord in 1/72).

Of course the underwings floats must be realigned and the flaps (much larger in the Sunderland) rescribed on the underside.

Cheers

Michael

Would this not screw with the parallel of the panel lines?

 

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44 minutes ago, Tweener said:

Would this not screw with the parallel of the panel lines?

 

I believe not.

 

I've done a bit of research on this, since I've looked at the same conversion. The prototype Sunderland had wings essentially identical to the C Class ones. In the course of flight testing it was discovered that the CofG needed to move aft; the quick and dirty fix for this was to sweep the wings back by (I think) 4.5 degrees, with consideration of a more refined solution deferred until later. Apart from the mods necessary for the sweep, the wing structure (including the nacelles) remained unaltered, so that the panel lines weren't affected but simply rotated with the rest of the wing. When the quick and dirty fix was found to work without any other adverse effects it was adopted as the solution. Thus the conversion back to a C Class simply involves rotating the Sunderland wings forward to take out the sweep, and Jack's your Aunty.

 

IIRC someone in Melbourne (the late and much lamented Fred Harris, I think) did this conversion many years ago, and at the time wrote an article for a local magazine. I thought I had a copy, but can't find it, so can't help further on that score. The conversion did involve a new, scratch built vacformed fuselage, copies of which were available from one of the Melbourne hobby shops. I had one, but again can't find it now. Others from this part of the world may know/remember more ...

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This thread has developed into something quite interesting.  I now have enough input to make a decision on whether to proceed with the conversion...or not. 

 

Thanking everyone for taking the time to reply.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis 

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