F-104 anti glare panel colour

[franky boy]

Hi everyone 

 

I’m building a Belgian airforce Starfighter in natural metal for the current NATO/Warpack GB pictured below.

 

Im using Armycast decals and the sheet calls for a black anti glare panel on the nose. I always thought that these were dark green, can’t remember the fs number right now. 

 

This 104 was built by SABCA so perhaps this was just a difference in one companies production line? Does anyone know?

 

 

Thanks 

 

James

Edited September 14, 2018 by franky boy

[JohnT]

I am no F-104 expert or anything else for that matter but I did purchase a copy of Danny Coremans and Peter Gordts book "Uncovering the F-104 Starfighter" and thought to pull it off the shelve to see if it helps at all with your question.

 

I found a paragraph which I quote:-

 

"  The radome is manufactured by weaving fibreglass strands, pulled through a resin bath, under regulated tension around a cone like steel tool.  After curing, the cone is milled precisely on the inside and outside to exact dimensions.  The Tech Manual stipulates FS16473 as colour for the radome and FS34079 for the antiglare area, but it's wise to use a lighter version on a scale model."

 

Being an ignoramus on FS colours I am not sure what that "translates" to other than green but which make of paint gives the best match I have no idea.  Thats before we start into scale colour effect too ! 

 

but I hope its a step in the right direction for you.

 

 

[Giorgio N]

The information in the Daco book is of course correct (as is generally the case with these books) but is not exhaustive...

Starfighters were built by a number of different companies and consortia and the colour of both radome and antiglare panel could vary depending on the manufacturer and the timeframe. In any case the most common combination, and the one seen on most F-104Gs, is the one mentioned.

Regarding paint, FS 16473 is sometime known as ADC grey, not all paint ranges have this but some do. It's a light grey with a tinge of blue and is the same used on grey F-102 and F-106 for the whole airframe.

34079 is the darker of the two greens used in the USAF SEA scheme and really every paint range includes this. I wouldn't be too furry on the green as these panels seem to have shown a lot of variation depending on manufacturer and age, any dark olive green will do.

One aspect of early Belgian F-104Gs that I've yet to fully clarify is the colour on the lower wing surfaces. These were supposed to be the same FS 16473 used on the radome and sure were on all other natural metal Starfighters. However I've seen mentions of these surfaces being in white on Belgian Starifighters, something that I'd like to confirm or deny one day...

 

[franky boy]

8 hours ago, JohnT said:

I am no F-104 expert or anything else for that matter but I did purchase a copy of Danny Coremans and Peter Gordts book "Uncovering the F-104 Starfighter" and thought to pull it off the shelve to see if it helps at all with your question.

 

I found a paragraph which I quote:-

 

"  The radome is manufactured by weaving fibreglass strands, pulled through a resin bath, under regulated tension around a cone like steel tool.  After curing, the cone is milled precisely on the inside and outside to exact dimensions.  The Tech Manual stipulates FS16473 as colour for the radome and FS34079 for the antiglare area, but it's wise to use a lighter version on a scale model."

 

Being an ignoramus on FS colours I am not sure what that "translates" to other than green but which make of paint gives the best match I have no idea.  Thats before we start into scale colour effect too ! 

 

but I hope its a step in the right direction for you.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The information in the Daco book is of course correct (as is generally the case with these books) but is not exhaustive...

Starfighters were built by a number of different companies and consortia and the colour of both radome and antiglare panel could vary depending on the manufacturer and the timeframe. In any case the most common combination, and the one seen on most F-104Gs, is the one mentioned.

Regarding paint, FS 16473 is sometime known as ADC grey, not all paint ranges have this but some do. It's a light grey with a tinge of blue and is the same used on grey F-102 and F-106 for the whole airframe.

34079 is the darker of the two greens used in the USAF SEA scheme and really every paint range includes this. I wouldn't be too furry on the green as these panels seem to have shown a lot of variation depending on manufacturer and age, any dark olive green will do.

One aspect of early Belgian F-104Gs that I've yet to fully clarify is the colour on the lower wing surfaces. These were supposed to be the same FS 16473 used on the radome and sure were on all other natural metal Starfighters. However I've seen mentions of these surfaces being in white on Belgian Starifighters, something that I'd like to confirm or deny one day...

 

 

Hi John and Giogio

 

Thanks for the great answers. I have the Daco book too, it's a brilliant piece of work. I just remember reading somewhere ages ago that one of the European contractors, cant remember which one, painted their anti glare panels black for a while and when i saw this call out on the decals instruction it just rang a bell. This may of course only be here say.

 

Anyway, decision made and I'll use Gunze aqueous H80 khaki green.

 

Regarding the ADC grey I have a bottle of this colour from Xtracrylics so have used this.

 

Giorgio, I agree with you on the colour of the early Belgian aircraft lower wings. It would be interesting to have firm answer on this. I've just gone with ADC grey again as per the instructions.

 

One other question regarding the wingtip rocket launchers. Were these painted white all over or would the underside be painted ADC grey as per the lower wing. Mine are white at the moment as I figured these were attached and detached as a single unit and may well be just the one colour. I coundnt' find a diffinitive answer in the Daco book or on the internet.

 

Thanks again

 

James

[Hook]

13 hours ago, franky boy said:

Giorgio, I agree with you on the colour of the early Belgian aircraft lower wings. It would be interesting to have firm answer on this. I've just gone with ADC grey again as per the instructions.

 

How about this?:

 

https://www.shutterstock.com/nl/editorial/image-editorial/art-transport-various-6044443cm 

 

Quote

One other question regarding the wingtip rocket launchers. Were these painted white all over or would the underside be painted ADC grey as per the lower wing.

 

These would be White all over. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[Murph]

18 hours ago, franky boy said:

 

 

Hi John and Giogio

 

Thanks for the great answers. I have the Daco book too, it's a brilliant piece of work. I just remember reading somewhere ages ago that one of the European contractors, cant remember which one, painted their anti glare panels black for a while and when i saw this call out on the decals instruction it just rang a bell. This may of course only be here say.

 

 

The USAF T.O. for the F-104 called for a black anti-glare panel; it's possible some of the foreign manufacturers followed that.

 

Regards,

Murph

[Sonoran]

FS 34079 for the anti-glare panel, and approximately FS 16473 for the radome, although that could vary.

[Giorgio N]

9 hours ago, Hook said:

 

How about this?:

 

https://www.shutterstock.com/nl/editorial/image-editorial/art-transport-various-6044443cm 

 

 

These would be White all over. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

 

That picture sorts the matter, even if not the clearest the grey undersides are visible.

 

23 hours ago, franky boy said:

 

 

Hi John and Giogio

 

Thanks for the great answers. I have the Daco book too, it's a brilliant piece of work. I just remember reading somewhere ages ago that one of the European contractors, cant remember which one, painted their anti glare panels black for a while and when i saw this call out on the decals instruction it just rang a bell. This may of course only be here say.

 

 

I've heard the same attributed to Fokker. However I'm going through several pictures of early Fokker built F-104 and they seem to have dark green antiglare panels. At the same time there are some pictures of Klu Starfighters with what really seem to be black panels. I have also seen a b/w picture where the panel on the radome is much lighter than the part around the canopy, that I interpreted as a replacement radome with green panel on an aircraft originally with black panel. Of course they may just be different green but the area around the canopy really looks very dark.

Another manufacturer that may have painted black panels is Canadair, as CF-104s can be seen with both green and black panels. I say may because it could of course be that the colour of the panels was changed over time. For example I've said that some early Dutch Starfighters show what seem to be black panels but pictures of the same later in their career only show green panels

 

5 hours ago, Murph said:

The USAF T.O. for the F-104 called for a black anti-glare panel; it's possible some of the foreign manufacturers followed that.

 

Regards,

Murph

 

The TO did but at the same time USAF Starfighters almost invariably had green panels. A small number of ANG F-104Cs showed overall black radomes late in their career

Edited September 15, 2018 by Giorgio N

[Hook]

48 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

I've heard the same attributed to Fokker. However I'm going through several pictures of early Fokker built F-104 and they seem to have dark green antiglare panels. At the same time there are some pictures of Klu Starfighters with what really seem to be black panels.

 

For KLu F-104G's: the ones built by Fokker were delivered with black anti-glare, the FIAT-ones (D-6* serials) were FS34079.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

22 hours ago, Hook said:

 

For KLu F-104G's: the ones built by Fokker were delivered with black anti-glare, the FIAT-ones (D-6* serials) were FS34079.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

 

 

 

Thanks Andre, this would explain the presence of panels with different colours in the same timeframe.

As I'm building D-6654 for the NATO/Warpac GB, this was a Fiat built aircraft, so I'll go with dark green for the panel

[Hook]

On 9/16/2018 at 6:33 PM, Giorgio N said:

 

Thanks Andre, this would explain the presence of panels with different colours in the same timeframe.

As I'm building D-6654 for the NATO/Warpac GB, this was a Fiat built aircraft, so I'll go with dark green for the panel

 

Excellent choice, you're obviously a man of impeccable taste.   

 

Here's a nice pic of her which clearly shows the Green:

 

http://www.overshoot.nl/Overshoot/Meer_322_F-104GS_files/D-6654-filtered.jpg 

 

She flew with the Leeuwarden based interceptor squadrons, so was not fitted with the nasal ECM warts like her Volkel Wing strike / attack / recce sisters.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[72modeler]

6 hours ago, Hook said:

 

Excellent choice, you're obviously a man of impeccable taste.   

 

Here's a nice pic of her which clearly shows the Green:

 

http://www.overshoot.nl/Overshoot/Meer_322_F-104GS_files/D-6654-filtered.jpg 

 

She flew with the Leeuwarden based interceptor squadrons, so was not fitted with the nasal ECM warts like her Volkel Wing strike / attack / recce sisters.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

And she's got the catamaran dual AIM-9 Sidewinder mount! Beautiful!

Mike

[Scooby]

On 9/15/2018 at 6:29 AM, Murph said:

The USAF T.O. for the F-104 called for a black anti-glare panel; it's possible some of the foreign manufacturers followed that.

 

Regards,

Murph

Canadian CF-104s had black anti glare too.

[stevehnz]

James, if you haven't already, it might be worth hunting through the many F-104 & TF-104 photos on the Belgian.be web site that your heading photo comes from. A photo of FX-04 seems to indicate black to me, but maybe with a greenish tinge?   Most of the TF-104 photos are of the later camo scheme but this one although black & white shows an unremittingly black looking antiglare panel to my eyes. Black?  Those wings are starting to look very white, some images they appear to match the underside radome color but not this one.

I spent some more time having a look at the F-104s in the link  I posted & there seems to be no hard & fast rule, a couple in the high 60s low 70s had a anti glare that was  greenish over the radome but blackish to in front of the canopy, so choose one with a good photo & go with what you see.

White wings.

Steve.

Edited September 18, 2018 by stevehnz

[franky boy]

9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

James, if you haven't already, it might be worth hunting through the many F-104 & TF-104 photos on the Belgian.be web site that your heading comes from. A photo of FX-04 seems to indicate black to me, but maybe with a greenish tinge?   Most of the TF-104 photos are of the later camo scheme but this one although black & white shows an unremittingly black looking antiglare panel to my eyes. Black?  Those wings are starting to look very white, some images they appear to match the underside radome color but not this one.

Steve.

 

Steve

 

Thanks for top links there.

 

Great minds think alike! I had a trawl through the internet last night and found that picture of FX-4. I had made my mind up on a dark green anti glare but may go back to black now. The joys of modelling?!

 

I wonder if there was some kind of problem with the radomes on these 104's. I say this because as Giorgio pointed out in an earlier post a lot  of the pictures of Belgian 104's and some others in natural metal seem to have the original black around the cockpit area but the radome itself has either been repainted in the dark green. Or are they new radomes?

 

 Thanks again

 

James

[ivand]

35 minutes ago, franky boy said:

I wonder if there was some kind of problem with the radomes on these 104's. I say this because as Giorgio pointed out in an earlier post a lot  of the pictures of Belgian 104's and some others in natural metal seem to have the original black around the cockpit area but the radome itself has either been repainted in the dark green. Or are they new radomes?

 

I suppose the weathering of the paint, which is originally the same colour, is different on the glassfibre radome versus the aluminium body panels in front of the canopy. 

[franky boy]

Could be, I hadn't thought of that.

 

It just looks different in the radome though? And the demarcation between the two is very sharp.

 

James

Edited September 18, 2018 by franky boy

[Murph]

49 minutes ago, ivand said:

I suppose the weathering of the paint, which is originally the same colour, is different on the glassfibre radome versus the aluminium body panels in front of the canopy. 

It's also possible it was two different paints.  The paints used on radomes are supposed to be formulated to not interfere with the radar energy.

 

Regards,

Murph

[Giorgio N]

A few clarifications: the potential presence of panels with black and green sections on Dutch aircrafts was something I linked with the rumour of the use of black by Fokker for antiglare panels. The KLU received F-104s from both Fokker and Fiat, and Fiat sure used green. Now Andre confirmed to me that Fokker used black, so makes sense that a Dutch aircraft could have had both black and green sections, as the radome could easily be swapped among aircraft in the unit during maintenance.

Swapping radomes is also IMHO the main reason why there are pictures showing dark and green sections on the same panel. It can be seen how there isn't any consistency among those Starfighters with panels in more than one tone, some have the darker on the fuselage and some on the radome. To me it's just a matter of the panels having been originally painted with different tones of green combined with swapping of radomes.

That different tones of green were used is shown by many pictures of Starfighters in action, with some showing a colour comparable to the FS 34079 mentioned in the Lockheed documents and others in darker olive greens.  To my eyes the only aircraft listed above that may have some black is FX-92, that seems to have black around the cockpit. All other ones show colours that are compatible to other dark green panels I've seen before on the Starfighter.

Speaking of wings, my doubts were about the lower surfaces of the wings, while the pictures all show the upper surfaces. These on natural metal Starfighters were always white, with only a few exceptions (some USAF Starfighters received ADC grey on the top as well as the bottom). Grey F-104Js also had white upper surfaces of the wings

[franky boy]

Giorgio 

 

Sorry to have misquoted you and thanks for the clarification.

 

James

[ivand]

7 hours ago, Murph said:

It's also possible it was two different paints.  The paints used on radomes are supposed to be formulated to not interfere with the radar energy.

 

Regards,

Murph

It could indeed, just look at the nose of any F-16 that's not fresh out of the paint shop. On the other hand, Belgian F-104's in 'Vietnam' camouflage didn't have an anti-glare panel and you don't notice a lot of difference in shade between the radome and the fuselage.

Though, admittedly, there is a difference :

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Belgium-Air-Force/Lockheed-SABCA-F-104G-Starfighter/1789790/L

The radome does seem to weather differently, too.

Edited September 18, 2018 by ivand

[Glidingbob]

Belgian natural metal F-104G  had green panels ( I am sure for F but it might be diffrent for NM TF-. There is indeed a small diffrence in tone between the radome otself and the areaG as these came directly from US) prbably due to the diffeence of material , radome in fiberglass nd area near cockpit metal. This area is slightly darker but is green as many pictures on BAf promotional leaflets of magasine or pictures of that time show.All I have seen myself ( I'm 66yo) were green 

Here some on dedicated BAF F-104G Favebook page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10212383036003767&set=g.107143362640745&type=1&theater&ifg=1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200882164686107&set=g.107143362640745&type=1&theater&ifg=1

 

Underwings : in the very begining natural metal but soon painted in grey (as stated in T.O) because of corrosion problems 

[Giorgio N]

11 hours ago, franky boy said:

Giorgio 

 

Sorry to have misquoted you and thanks for the clarification.

 

James

 

No problem at all, it's easy to get somewhat lost in the many information put out in this thread

 

9 hours ago, Glidingbob said:

Belgian natural metal F-104G  had green panels ( I am sure for F but it might be diffrent for NM TF-. There is indeed a small diffrence in tone between the radome otself and the areaG as these came directly from US) prbably due to the diffeence of material , radome in fiberglass nd area near cockpit metal. This area is slightly darker but is green as many pictures on BAf promotional leaflets of magasine or pictures of that time show.All I have seen myself ( I'm 66yo) were green 

Here some on dedicated BAF F-104G Favebook page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10212383036003767&set=g.107143362640745&type=1&theater&ifg=1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200882164686107&set=g.107143362640745&type=1&theater&ifg=1

 

Underwings : in the very begining natural metal but soon painted in grey (as stated in T.O) because of corrosion problems 

 

Thanks for this information ! The presence of natural metal lower wing surfaces is very interesting and could be a very rare case, as earlier variants of the Starfighter all had grey paint in these areas

[Glidingbob]

Hi Georgio

 

I also tought that the undersides of wings were grey from factory but when I wrote an article about the "white wings" for IPMS KIT magasine (Belgium)some years ago a former officer and also modeller wrote to say when he was in Beauvechain in maintenance , the decision was taken as very rapidly to paint the undersides because corosion problems occured ;

I have  copies of T.O notes post 1965 that say that the undersides of wings should be painted grey

[Hook]

On 9/18/2018 at 2:12 AM, 72modeler said:

And she's got the catamaran dual AIM-9 Sidewinder mount! Beautiful!

 

 

KLu F-104G's were not multirole. 

 

We had two dedicated interceptor units (322 and 323 Squadron) at Leeuwarden, two Volkel-based strike / attack (311 and 312 Squadron) units and a recce (306 Sq.) unit.

 

Only the Leeuwarden birds carried Sidewinders.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre