FAA Corsair - dimensions for markings help

[JackG]

Been putting together a decal sheet  for future projects, and one of these include a 72nd scale Corsair flown by Canadian Don Sheppard in May of 1945:

 

So my questions are:

1.)  Are the wing and fuselage roundel markings identical in size?

2.)  Anyone have quick access to the above measurements - either actual inches or scale model decals?

3.)  Just to be sure, the blue is the same for both the roundel and bars, and that would be Identification Blue (Dull)    FS 35044?

4.)  I think the black stenciling is 4", while fuselage codes would be 18" and the tail marking is 24"?

 

 

Have found a description on markings which is fairly detailed, but not sure when outer ring measurement is given, does that include the 2" white border?

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/topic/1841-us-and-faa-ac-ww2-occasional-series-of-colour-notes/

 

This is interesting too, it illustrates that the center of the  bar is placed slightly above the roundel center:

http://www.renohighrollers.com/images/British Roundels.pdf

 

------------------------------------

 

I also have Eduard's Duel Combo Hellcat Mk.I/Mk.II, so can their decals be used as a size source - assuming they are done up correctly?

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[JackG]

Well here is what I have come up with, using the links found in my opening post, along with studying photos, artwork, and various decal manufactures.  Have gone with one of Sheppard's earlier mounts JT410:

 

Markings
Roundel dimensions were adhered to those from the LargeScaleModeller forum.  The only slight variation done was to the upper wing.  They did not quite cover the original red centers, so they were slightly enlarged, such that the new white center is 7", otherwise the rest followed the 16" with 6" center format.  These were all superimposed over the original RAF roundels, their sizes being:

 

upper wing: 59"
fuselage:  36"
under wing : 32"
Fin Flash is 16"x24"
Black Serial number height is 4"

No mention is made of fuselage code height, so not sure if the standard was followed.  In fact, there seems to be some uncertainty about the colour too, some look white, while others are definitely darker than the white centers of the roundels, maybe Sky?   I tried 18" first, but they seemed a bit short in height, so have decided on 20" for T8*H.
The individual aircraft numbering on the landing gear doors was arrived at by measuring the model part and comparing with a photo - going with 5mm height for a 1/72 scale Corsair.

Colours
Since these will be printed to include the original roundels underneath, had to dig out some FS numbers with the associated paints, and then further translate into their RGB values.  No simple task, there was some variety in suggested paint matches, and sometimes two sources would have the same FS value, but one would have a digital paint swatch that had a completely different RBG number.   In the end I relied on  http://www.colorserver.net/ to have an accurate digital representation, and screen grabbing that into my paint program.

 

 

- ID Red 1937-1947  = fs 30109                               RBG  121,58,49
- ID Blue 1937-1947  = fs 35048                              RBG  20,40,78
- ID Yellow    "  -   "   = fs 33538                              RBG  237,180,2
US insignia blue fs 15044                 RBG  26,39,59
US insignia red   fs 11136                 RBG  141,35,30
US lemon yellow 1943  fs 13655       RBG  255,178,0   
- Extra Dark Sea Grey = fs 36099                                RBG  66,76,85
- Dark Slate Grey =  fs 34096                                      RBG  97,99,82
- Sky  = fs 34424 (No 210 Sky)                                    RBG  161,174,148

 

... and since some of  the original roundels have been painted over, here is a calculation of about 10% of underneath colour showing through using this online tool:

https://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/color-blend/#:::rgbd

SUPERIMPOSED COLOURS:
EDSG over US yellow = rgb(83,85,77)  
DSG over US yellow  = rgb(111,106,75)
EDSG over insignia  blue = rgb(62,72,83)
DSG over insignia blue = rgb(91,93,80)
Sky over insignia blue =  rgb(149,161,140)
---------------------------------------------------------
Didn't use these, but if anyone is interested in the ANA paint versions for TSS:
Extra Dark Sea Gray:  ANA 603 Sea Gray      (FS 36118)         = RGB: 92; 97; 105
Dark Slate Gray:          ANA 613 Olive Drab      (FS 34130)      = RGB: 92; 90; 60
Sky:                               ANA 610 Sky       (FS 34424)                 = RGB: 169; 173; 149

Doesn't seem right that Sky is an exact match to FAA/RAF paint, but maybe that is a limitation of the Federal Standard chart, since the  RGB value is slightly different when measuring the digital sample from here:  https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_table.shtml

 

That said, if anyone sees something off, or totally wrong, please do not hesitate to point it out.

Final note, the coloured markings I have put on top of the Tamiya instruction sheet have been brightened by 7% for scale effect (Cybermodeler suggest 15% for 72nd scale).

 

regards,
Jack

[LDSModeller]

On 9/4/2018 at 3:37 AM, JackG said:

This is interesting too, it illustrates that the center of the  bar is placed slightly above the roundel center:

http://www.renohighrollers.com/images/British Roundels.pdf

Sorry to intrude on your FAA Roundels, but that individual has No idea on RNZAF Roundels, in

the link above, Some Roundel bars were off centre not every one, and colours call out???

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Grey Beema]

4 hours ago, JackG said:

Markings
Roundel dimensions were adhered to those from the LargeScaleModeller forum.  The only slight variation done was to the upper wing.  They did not quite cover the original red centers, so they were slightly enlarged, such that the new white center is 7", otherwise the rest followed the 16" with 6" center format.  These were all superimposed over the original RAF roundels, their sizes being:

 

upper wing: 59"
fuselage:  36"
under wing : 32"
Fin Flash is 16"x24"
Black Serial number height is 4"

No mention is made of fuselage code height, so not sure if the standard was followed.  In fact, there seems to be some uncertainty about the colour too, some look white, while others are definitely darker than the white centers of the roundels, maybe Sky?   I tried 18" first, but they seemed a bit short in height, so have decided on 20" for T8*H.
The individual aircraft numbering on the landing gear doors was arrived at by measuring the model part and comparing with a photo - going with 5mm height for a 1/72 scale Corsair.

Colours
Since these will be printed to include the original roundels underneath, had to dig out some FS numbers with the associated paints, and then further translate into their RGB values.  No simple task, there was some variety in suggested paint matches, and sometimes two sources would have the same FS value, but one would have a digital paint swatch that had a completely different RBG number.   In the end I relied on  http://www.colorserver.net/ to have an accurate digital representation, and screen grabbing that into my paint program.

 

Hi Jack - this is what I have on the subject.  I am sure someone with more knowledgethen me will be along in a minute to correct it but a starter for 10..

 

Sept 43 RAF Directive which (I think) was followed by the FAA East Indies Fleet was -

Roundels

Aircraft Size       Blue Circle  White Circle

Small                        16                 6

Medium                   32                12

Large                       48                 18

 

Fin Flash (White to leading edge)

Aircraft Size    Width   Height   White   Blue

Small                  16         24         8          8

Medium             22         24        11        11

Large                 34         24        17        17

 

BFP Roundels

Aircraft size  Outer   Inner   White   Rectangular Panels

                     Ring     Ring   Border     (1/2 Diameter)

Small              32        12        2-3              16

Medium         42        14        2-3               21

Large              48        18        2-3              24

 

I also have a note:-  In actual use the Corsair II & IV and Hellcat II carried the 48" roundels, Seafire, Avenger and Firefly carried the 42" roundel while the Hellcat I carried the 36" roundel.. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

I have also done renditions of Sheppard's X136 (I used 16" numerals) and Hay's RH Machines from the BPF & EIF if you are interested - both have painted out/repainted markings, I can put a a picture if you think it might help..

 

 

[stevehnz]

1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

, I can put a a picture if you think it might help..

Yes please, I'd be keen to see those Grey.

Steve.

[JackG]

Hello Alan, thank you for dropping by - and no I do not consider it an intrusion.  That is good to know that the notion of an offset bar behind the roundel is not standard.  That makes it easier for me to just center it and not worry which is the right side up when at the decal stage.

For the Federal Standard paint matches I have posted, many came from Paul Lucas and his publication for SAM and it's subject of The Battle for Britain.  These include all three of the main RAF roundel colours (Red, Blue and Yellow), as well as Sky and Extra Dark Sea Grey.  He had no direct match for Dark Slate Grey (nor does Nick Millman).  I did find a Canadian site http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colour_Guide/rcnair_clr.html that does mention FS 34096 (as did Paul and Nick, though not considered a close enough match), the digital sample seems correct - note the differences in the RBG values:

 

The  ANA equivalents for Temperate Sea Scheme were found at the LargeScaleModeller forum link.  I'm fairly certain I read that the American manufactured aircraft were also delivered with the British national markings applied in US paints, but have not found anything listed specially for British equivalents (red, blue and yellow).  Have assume they just used existing paints that were also applied for American markings, that being Insignia Red, Insignia Blue, and Lemon Yellow (or was it Orange Yellow??).   Digital colours can be seen here: https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_table.shtml
-------------------------------------------------
Hello Grey, certainly yes, post some images.  About the measurements you have quoted, yes those are exactly as set out in the LargeScaleModeller forum link.  There is another lengthy post found here by an erussell: http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7556
Looks to be same info as found in the very  first link, note too both mention FAA fuselage codes were either 18" or 24".  
-------------------------------------------------
Hello Steve, welcome to the discussion.

Anyhow, I think I've got all the sources/references sorted out from what I used.  Just can't pin down the 59" upper wing Type B roundel, but it certainly seems to comply with these images;

 

 

 

 

In this third photo we can see the roundel with bars marking based on the 48" size (not including the 2-3 inches of white surround).  Underneath and on both upper wings, is what I believe to be the original 59" Type B roundels??

 

regards,
Jack

Edited September 14, 2018 by JackG

[Scooby]

Hopefully this question doesn’t sideline your thread. I’ve been fortunate to have met Don Sheppard on a few occasions.

 

I read recently on one of the aces sites that he passed away May 2/2018. Yet I can’t find any further information. Last I knew he was in Sunnybrook Veterans Wing in Toronto. Had he passed away I thought there would of been something significant held by the RCN, as he was Canada’s last naval ace.

 

I did find an obituary for another Don Sheppard on April 2/2018. He also lived in Toronto. I suspect it may be possible someone mixed up the info at the aces website. And they mixed up May (05) for April (04).

[JackG]

May 2nd 2018 appears to be the correct date:

 

https://www.aftercare.org/obituaries/Donald-Sheppard-3/#!/Obituary

https://fleetairarmoa.org/news/commander-don-sheppard

 

regards,

Jack

[Scooby]

19 hours ago, JackG said:

May 2nd 2018 appears to be the correct date:

 

https://www.aftercare.org/obituaries/Donald-Sheppard-3/#!/Obituary

https://fleetairarmoa.org/news/commander-don-sheppard

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks much, I have no idea why my google searches came up empty.

 

Sorry to see he is gone.

[Grey Beema]

 Hi Jack,

 

This is my rendition of Corsair II JT537/P136 flown by Sheppard 04.04.45.  

 

I used Xtracrylics paints but wanted a slightly faded finish.  I don't like to fade the paint down and then put unfaded markings over the paint as I'm not sure it looks "right".  So I decaled over the fresh paint then lightly oversprayed with sky grey to fade down the paint.  To recreate markings being painted out I masked the area of the marking out before fading.  

 

On the underside I put the Roundel decal over the paint then lightly overstayed with underside Sky S until the Roundel only slightly showed.  The mask I cut for this was the full size of a Roundel (the one overspray was an EIF sized Blue White Roundel). The effect is subtle but it is there. 

[/url

 

Corsair II JT427/RH Nicobar Operation 10.44

 

I used the opposite effect on this model.  I faded the same paint by mixing in a small amount of sky grey before spraying and then made masks for the fuselage roundels and oversprayed in fresh Camouflage colour.  It doesn't stand out to well in photographs but is more obvious in the flesh.

 

I suspect that in the case of a GSB Corsair the original marking would be over painted with whatever they had in the paint store. I think I would paint the marking out in a Matt finish Insignia Blue (RGB 06/20/58) which should provide the appropriate colour and finish contrast with the factory applied GSB.

 

Hope this helps..

Edited September 16, 2018 by Grey Beema

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

I suspect that in the case of a GSB Corsair the original marking would be over painted with whatever they had in the paint store. I think I would paint the marking out in a Matt finish Insignia Blue (RGB 06/20/58) which should provide the appropriate colour and finish contrast with the factory applied GSB. 

Nice model.  I particularly like the oversprayed roundel effects and the area around the gun panels: signs of wear but not criminal abuse!

 

Not arguing but curious to know why you feel a UK paint store, whether ship or shore establishment, would be more likely to have in stock US shade Insignia Blue, normally confined to use on US national markings, rather than US shade Gloss Sea Blue, used on whole airframes.  Were you perhaps thinking MAP Roundel Blue?  (BTW ISTR @iangmentioning RN warships complaining about a shortage of paint to convert East Indies Fleet markings into British Pacific Fleet ones, which would make use of shades other than GSB not improbable.)

[Grey Beema]

8 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Nice model.  I particularly like the oversprayed roundel effects and the area around the gun panels: signs of wear but not criminal abuse!

 

Not arguing but curious to know why you feel a UK paint store, whether ship or shore establishment, would be more likely to have in stock US shade Insignia Blue, normally confined to use on US national markings, rather than US shade Gloss Sea Blue, used on whole airframes.  Were you perhaps thinking MAP Roundel Blue?  (BTW ISTR @iangmentioning RN warships complaining about a shortage of paint to convert East Indies Fleet markings into British Pacific Fleet ones, which would make use of shades other than GSB not improbable.)

Sorry yes MAP Roundel Blue was what I meant (and what I gave the RGB code for) not US Insignia Blue..

 

[JackG]

Grey, I like how both those turned out.  I know what you mean about decals needing to be weathered to match the aircraft.  This is something I'm trying to incorporate in my custom decals ( or at least the scale effect aspect).  Now the 16" fuselage codes you mentioned earlier, are these from an aftermarket set or did you make your own?

 

I wonder if these are also 16" as it is the same unit?

Wish there was a larger photo of the above, but I will try blowing it up and do some calculations, since we know that should be a 48" roundel (not including the white surround).

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

Seahawk, that is an interesting point that the British were experiencing paint shortages.   I wonder if that was the case already when they were told to remove the red centers on the roundels.  There are examples from that period which have much larger white centers then the stipulated 6 inches.  It appears maybe the red was painted over with white and not blue as directed.   Then somewhere along the way, the white centers were painted over again with a mixed white/blue and then finally a white disc added?

 

 

The diagram above, the left side shows how the roundel was suppose to be corrected to eliminate the red center.  On the right is a deviation from either not correctly understanding the directive, or due to paint shortages??

 

--------------------------------

 

Getting back to the 59" B type roundel, I still have not found where I read that size was for the Corsair.  I do have it written on paper when preparing the calculations for artwork, and I even added a note about the Hellcat having 55" size, both from the same source.  As it turns out, I do have Xtradecal sheet no. X72043 that includes 59" B types, and the instructions stipulate this was the size used by Corsairs  (as well as the Beaufort and Blenheim).   Further to this, it describes specific sizes were arrived at by taking the maximum wing chord at 2/3 wingspan and allowing a 1" clearance between the wing leading edge and ailerons.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by JackG

[Seahawk]

I wouldn't go overboard on the paint shortage story (of which I shall say no more because it wasn't my research and I'm a little hazy on the precise context).  The markings change to remove red from British aircraft operating in the Far East dates from 1 Aug 1943, before some of those aircraft were born!   Repainting markings for the appropriate theatre of operation was quite literally a rite of passage for squadrons in ships heading east.  The need to do so was predictable and there would be plenty of time to do it during the dreary passage east.   I believe that the shortage of paint was a specific temporary phenomenon created by the "big bang" implementation of a fleet-wide changeover from East Indies Fleet markings to British Pacific Fleet ones.

 

As regards your roundel graphic, contrary to many transfer sheets, mixed blue was not used by the FAA, or at least officially: the officially promulgated colour was always white.  The style with the red simply overpainted with white (ie larger white centre) is particularly common on aircraft working up in South Africa.  I think I recall it was retained on some aircraft (Barracudas come to mind) participating in the earliest EIF strikes but I'd suggest it's generally a transitional stage: why such a transitional phase was needed beats me.  I'm going to hold off on further pontificating on EIF upper surface roundels because I genuinely have a problem interpreting what is going on in a lot of BW photos: if I don't tust my own judgement, no-one else should either!  There are some photos which appear to show 16" roundels on upper surfaces: this would have been contrary to orders and I am inclined to believe that I am seeing is roundels converted as per your 3rd one down on the LHS except that in extreme sunlight the original blue portion has faded to be indistinguishable, at least in BW photos, from the equally faded surrounding camouflage, so that all shows up is the freshly painted inner blue/white portion.

 

As regards the 59" size of the B Type upper wing roundel, I got this information from the excellent list provided with Modeldecal sheet 42: it sounds as if it has been carried over to the Xtradecal replacement.   I don't know where Dick Ward got the info from but, given the quality of Modedecal research, if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me.  PS 59" also used on Fulmar. 

 

PS That Large Scale Modeller article needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, at least as far as FAA colours go.  It draws heavily (as do I) from a superb, genuinely ground-breaking article on British Far Eastern colours and markings 1941-45 published by the late Geoff Thomas in Scale Aircraft Modelling 16/4 Feb 1994.  There are errors, some from the limits of Geoff's knowledge at the time and others from quoting his article out of context.  It just shows how our state of knowledge has moved on.  At a quick scan, for example,

 

• The article overlooks the difference between MAP Equivalent and MAP Substitute shades.  The former were used by Grumman (Hellcat, Avenger, early Martlets/Wildcats) and are for all intents and purposes the same as the British MAP shade.  Substitute shades were those accepted by the British, in the interests of simplifying production, as acceptable alternatives to the "correct" MAP paint: they are roughly in the same ballpark as the MAP shade but often clearly distinguishable from them (eg Sky was replaced by a Light Gray).  Substitute shades were used by Eastern Aircraft (Wildcat) and Vought (Corsair).  (Geoff himself later uncovered a Grumman painting diagram for FAA Hellcats and went to the trouble of having a letter published in IPMS Magazine saying he'd been wrong to say Substitute colours were used on Hellcats.)
• Finding pure white too contrasty for use was an issue the RAF brought up during its trials and resulted in the adoption in SEAC of markings with pale blue mixed from 4 parts white and 1 of blue.  The Admiralty clearly weren't as bothered and retained white throughout the war.
• While the FAA adopted the same roundel and fin flash sizes as the RAF for fuselage, underwings and fins, it did not adopt the small upper surface roundels, instead modifying the original roundel by painting out the red centre in blue and superimposing a 9" white centre.   I can't recall seeing this done on SEAC aircraft.
• Avengers in Sea Blue Gloss did reach frontline units of the British Pacific Fleet before the end of the war.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Seahawk

[Graham Boak]

It may be worth pointing out that the small blue/blue roundel was not adopted in SEAC until 1944.  In 1943 the red centre was generally overpainted giving a blue/white roundel of the original size with a large area of white.  Later examples do show the blue extended inwards with a smaller white centre - which may be 9 inches but I really can't say.  This will read across into FAA operations in the Indian ocean in 1943 - whatever they were!

Edited September 17, 2018 by Graham Boak

[JackG]

Thank you both, Seahawk and Graham.

 

"There are some photos which appear to show 16" roundels on upper surfaces: this would have been contrary to orders..."

Now I'm not sure I have understood this part of the directive:

Roundels

Aircraft Size       Blue Circle  White Circle

Small                        16                 6

Medium                   32                12

Large                       48                 18 

 

So the small, medium, and large is referring to something other than aircraft sizes??

 

The 9" white center for the upper roundels is interesting.   Going to my artwork and stretching the 16" roundel to fit exactly over the red portion of the 59" Type B, the automatic adjustment of the small white center does go from 6" to approximately  8.78" - so I will definitely incorporate the suggested 9".

 

-------------------------------------

 

Have found a larger image sample;

 

 

I blew up the image size, but there are still problems in form of blurred edges and the fact of trying to measure an exact length on a curved surface as well as some perspective issues.   My results are that going by the roundel diameter, the fuselage code would likely be 18" tall, but if comparing to the bar height, it could be 17".  Factor in the mentioned problems, then 16" could possibly be correct as well.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by JackG

[Seahawk]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It may be worth pointing out that the small blue/blue roundel was not adopted in SEAC until 1944. 

That's not how I read Thomas, who says a revised schedule "Aircraft Identification Markings for India Command" was issued by Air HQ India on 29 Sep 1943.  This not only set out the marking sizes for various sizes of aircraft but also said pure white was too bright for the centres and specified the mix for the pale blue to be used instead.  But it would be idle to deny that there was a range of non-standard marking applications in the immediate aftermath of the directive's issue.  Mohawks and Vengeances particularly come to mind.

 

@JackG  Large/medium/small in the directive did indeed apply to aircraft size.  "The small markings ie 16 in dia blue are to be used on all fighters, trainer types,... The large sized markings are to be used on heavy bombers and the medium on intermediate types".  This was evidently insufficiently specific for the readership because there are examples of both Thunderbolts and PR Spitfires with Intermediate size markings.  A 16" dia upper surface roundel would be correct for a small RAF SEAC type but not for the FAA, who went their own way of using a blue roundel with a small white centre which retained the outside diameter of the original Type B upper surface roundel. 

 

I don't think FAA code sizes are a precise science at any stage in the war.  A while back SAM Magazine published an excellent 4-sheet transfer set of British Pacific Fleet roundels, codes and serials.  The accompanying instructions noted the use of a variety of code sizes from 15" to 24".  The people behind the sheet were Neil Robinson and Paul Lucas.  I don't know where they got that info from but I suspect that they obtained it by doing exactly what you are doing: estimating by eye based on known dimensions.  Even further back a Canadian firm called Tally Ho! produced a range of 1/72 transfer sheets covering EIF and BPF aircraft.  They were generally well-researched.  The size of the code letters provided in their sheets scales out as either 18" or 16" (ie there are some of both).  I suggest you trust your own judgement here and go for something that matches a photograph of your subject.  In some areas (eg roundel sizes and colours) there were directives in place which one would expect to have been followed, in others (eg code sizes and colours) there were not (or no-one has found them yet!).

[Graham Boak]

  I'm not just reading Thomas, but looking at the photos of aircraft operating on this front.  Look in Franks' books, and (I dare say) in Shores'.  These intermediate roundels are seen not just in the immediate aftermath but well before that, and for some time after.  You can see "RAAF-style" roundels on Blenheims, Dakotas, Hurricanes, Vengeances, Mohawks in the 1943 period, mainly of the red overpainted with more white kind, and the "filled in" variety on 607's Spitfire Mk.Vs well into 2nd Arakan.     Spitfires didn't equip SEAC squadrons until September 1943, yet you don't see the appearance of the small SEAC roundel on Spitfires until the squadrons are refitted with the Mk.VIIIs in time for Imphal -  which is well into 1944.  The two squadrons of Mk.VIIIs flying in from the Middle East in December 1943 may be an early exception.  Although 615 was photographed using the small roundel on its Mk.Vs, it did retain these aircraft until June 1944.  

 

To be fair, there are nowhere near as many photos as we would like to see, and not all can be precisely dated.  Nonetheless it seems that aircraft with the earlier roundels saw no pressing need to change whilst on operations, and there was the (comparatively) relaxed period before the start of 2nd Arakan.  It seems clear that whereas the instruction may well have been issued in time for the final quarter of 1943, the new roundels are not widely seen until 1944.  Now if you can come up with lots of photos of SEAC Spitfire Mk.Vs (other than 615) in the later roundels, we'll all be happy.  But that still leaves all the other types in the first nine months or more of 1943, and possibly late in 1942 too.  For the majority of 1943, the closest to a standard RAF roundel was the standard types with the red overpainted with white.

 

[Grey Beema]

As an observation of the photograph of JT533/P120 there, the P & 120 look like a closer match to the sky undersides than the white of the Roundel and bar.  Is it possible that the codes were painted Sky rather than white?

[iang]

CAFO 1099 June 1945 mandated that code marking on Royal Navy aircraft were to be Sky or Medium Sea Grey.  Interestingly, Morris opines the pale blue codes found on Corsair KD431 a local mix for "Sky", but found no written documents mandating pale blue codes. 

 

Two observations  on this.  First, the service application of Confidential Admiralty Fleet Orders often pre-dates the relevant CAFO issue date. Secondly, practice among BPF units was not uniform.  On Formidable and Implacable, white codes seem to have been consistently used, whereas Indefatigable and Victorious used codes that were clearly not white throughout their BPF deployment (as in the case of JT633 pictured in a previous post).  On these last two carriers, there may have been  a difference between fighter and bomber squadrons, though this may just be because of a lack of  photographs from the same time period.

 

Here is a good example on non-white codes on Indefatigable's 820 Avengers. I believe these are photographed during Operations off Japan (i.e. after CAFO 1099):

 

 

 

Pale blue, Sky, or Medium Sea Grey?

 

I have quite a large number of examples of non-white codes, but establishing chronology is still a work in progress.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by iang

[JackG]

Seahawk, thanks for further explanation - now I know why I had some uncertainties.  Sure am glad I started this thread before getting those decals printed out.

 

regards,

Jack