Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Hi folks, As I am enjoying my Sabre Dog build: ... I thought of having a go at another early cold war subject and dug a Tamiya MiG-15 from the stash that has sat there for a long time. Unfortunately the decals are cracked and ruined. I always associate the MiG-15 with the Korean conflict and am interested in buying replacements for an aircraft flown by a Russian pilot. From a cursory look around but with no references on the subject, it seems that the Russians mostly flew under North Korean markings? As such, most decal sheets identified as being Korean war aircraft have NK insignia rather than red stars. Can anyone confirm if that's the case? Thanks for reading, Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: From a cursory look around but with no references on the subject, it seems that the Russians mostly flew under North Korean markings? As such, most decal sheets identified as being Korean war aircraft have NK insignia rather than red stars. Jamie, I have Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #82, Soviet Mig-15 Aces of the Korean Conflict, and all of the color profiles of Soviet Mig-15 aces show their Mig-15's in North Korean markings, which IIRC they had to do to conceal their active involvement; pilots were discouraged from using Russian over the radio as well. Hope this helps. Mike 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Thank you Mike, that makes sense. I can't imagine they were fooling anyone personally but now I have a good steer for decal shopping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Some of them flew under Chinese markings, like Maj. Kolyadin and Maj. Ovsyannikov. Also, I think it was Lt. Skodin, who back in the USSR added Korean war victory stars just below cockpit rails of his MiG-15, marked with regular Soviet red star insignia. Probably not what you are looking for, although it adds some variety. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 HI Jamie regarding decals, and schemes, there are very few photos (given they were not supposed to be Korea) so treat a lot of what you find with caution! You might find this thread of interest and note the link to another thread on MiG-15 camo colours. The most photos I saw were in pdf of a book I found online, I think it was a Russian book, and that had 5 or 6, I was looking for a camouflaged example. the best pics are of the MiG-15 defector unsurprisingly Hope of interest T 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 Thanks Jure and Troy, I find this faux secrecy hilarious. Who did they hope the Americans would think were shooting at their B-29s? 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Thanks Jure and Troy, I find this faux secrecy hilarious. Who did they hope the Americans would think were shooting at their B-29s? 😂 The secrecy had to do with hiding that these were Soviet pilots doing the shooting. The Americans were supposed to think that it was Chinese or North Korean pilots shooting at their B-29s (and F-86s). What I find interesting is how the USAF tried to hide their losses to the Soviet-manned MiG-15s by claiming their F-86 losses were due to flak (why is it better to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire?) or non-operational causes. I'm afraid because of Cold War exaggeration on both sides we may never know exactly how well the Soviet-manned MiG-15s did against the Sabres and vice-versa. Regards, Jason 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 53 minutes ago, Learstang said: What I find interesting is how the USAF tried to hide their losses to the Soviet-manned MiG-15s by claiming their F-86 losses were due to flak (why is it better to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire?) or non-operational causes. I'm afraid because of Cold War exaggeration on both sides we may never know exactly how well the Soviet-manned MiG-15s did against the Sabres and vice-versa. I think Flak can be considered "unlucky" while being shot down implies a better enemy pilot and/or aircraft, which is not good propaganda. There is some interesting reports in the later volumes of the Arab MiGs books regarding the cause of Israeli losses, again Flak or accidents the cause, but not air to air combat losses, and as that would make the IAF "lesser" especially after the successes of the 1967 Operation Moked attacks, though the Arab successes came after they stopped listening to the Soviet advisors... Believing your own propaganda can also cause problems, as it can cause you to underestimate your opponent.. as occurred in the 1973 war... I personally am interested in conflicts where reality overides accepted ideas or dogmas.... And you have a hard time beating WW2 for that, with the Arab-Israeli 67-73 being fascinating, guns vs missiles, and eventually In that case showing the American planes and the technology on and in them outclassed the Soviet equivalents. Apologies for the digression Jamie. Glad the MiG info was of use. Cheers T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) One of the reasons that overflights over Soviet Union by U-2s had been done by CIA was to ensure US rebukes of Soviet complaints about USAF aircraft infringing into their airspace had had some basis in truth. Strictly speaking, U-2s had been owned by non-military organization and their pilots had been civilians. During Vietnam war Thailand insisted on removing USAF insignia from A-1 and A-26A aircraft stationed there. Thais also refused to allow B-26K bombers to operate from their soil, but they had had no issues when USAF changed type designation into A-26A attack aircraft. Needles to say, the aircraft in question were the same in both cases. The Republican's practice of issuing international volunteer pilots with Spanish documents during Spanish civil war even made sense as upon their return it helped to conceal their involvement from rarely sympathetic local authorities. And I believe Cubans kept bodies of US mercenaries/instructors/advisors/agents, shot down over Bay of Pigs, on ice for decades before they had been returned to the USA in exchange for some vague kind of recognition of US involvement. Also, there were pilots like Soviet MiG-17 flying instructor, who shot down Wyvern during Suez crisis and never received credit for that. Talking about victories, making ace pilots national heroes was always a double edged sword. What if they got killed? In such cases spin doctors have to perpetuate fallen hero's invincibility even into his death. Did Immelmann overstressed his Fokker or was shot down by RFC two-seater? Did Guynemer really flew too high and was unable to descent or was he shot down by German (Pfalz?) fighter? What about Albert Ball, what happened before he plunged from a cloud and dived into a ground (and, yes, I know it was not Lothar von Richthofen who shot him down)? Broadening the concept into air losses in general, I have always been amazed how many Israeli aircraft had been shot down by AA missiles and flak or suffered mechanical failures right in the middle of say, high speed chase with a couple of MiGs on their tails. The same pattern, although perhaps slightly less pronounced, appeared about Iranian aircraft losses against Arab air forces. Enough said, before I get too deep into a quick sand of international politics. Cheers Jure Edited September 1, 2018 by Jure Miljevic spelling and grammatical errors corrected (hopefully all of them) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Indeed, the subject of air losses has always had a political (propaganda) element to it. Don't get me started on the scores of the Luftwaffe Experten... However, back to our regularly scheduled programme. Regards, Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob G Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 51 minutes ago, Learstang said: Don't get me started on the scores of the Luftwaffe Experten... Or indeed the airmen of any air force... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoran Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 BEWARE of that Osprey book. Most of the color profiles are fictional. You need to get the Armada MiG-15 book from Russia. Hard to find but worth it. It’s a horizontal format like an In-Action book. The research behind it is outstanding, as are its color profiles. One thing to note that most profile and decal artists miss is that during the Korean War (and ever since) the DPRKAF didn’t use upper wing roundels. I’ve never seen a single photo of a North Korean military aircraft that had them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Well spotted, Sonoran! I thought only camouflaged MiG-15s lacked such insignia but, browsing through my books, I have yet to see a photo of MiG-15 with DPRKAF stars on top surfaces, silver finish or otherwise. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickshaw Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The lack of upper-wing stars/roundels is common right across most Communist air forces during the Cold War. The Russians didn't do it, so why should their allies who were tutored/supplied by them? Yefim Gordon makes that point in several of his books (which need to be taken IMO with a grain of salt in some cases). The DPRKAF during the Korean War was made up of a small cadre of North Korean pilots and a larger number of Russian and Chinese pilots. As the war progressed, the number of North Koreans increased but never totally supplanted the Russian/Chinese pilots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoran Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Soviet aircraft without upper wing insignia were the rare exception, not the rule. Other than Poland, the other WARPAC air arms used them as well. Edited September 3, 2018 by Sonoran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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