Ray S Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) Hello all! I must apologise and confess that I had been drawn to the dark side of non-maritime modelling recently, for which I humbly ask forgiveness! I think my problem is that I hit a brick wall with my previous scratchbuild project, the screw steamer Knight Templar. I managed to get quite a way into that build, but stalled. I have dabbled with a couple of ships, the latest being the Airfix RMS Queen Elizabeth. I have tried a number of times to get back to the Knight Templar, but I have put it on hold for the foreseeable future. I still wanted to do a scratch-build, and @Bandsaw Steve was kind enough to help me out with some plans, for the E23 Submarine, but at the moment I think that would be a step too far, but it will be done sometime. I have Suffolk/Norfolk blood in my veins, and a recent return to my roots has prompted me to have a go at building a Wherry. To that end, I searched Abe Books and found this little gem: Inside, I found these: One plan was scaled at 1 inch =10 feet, and the other was 1 inch = 8 feet. A frantic hour trying to remember schoolboy mathematics and ratios to scale both to 1/72 took place and I whizzed up to my local library to get the scans re-scaled took place. It then took a few tries to get the A4 paper into the right place on the platen, but then I ended up with 6 copies of of each, and then I redid some of them as sacrificial copies for when I start building. To ensure my maths had worked I remembered to take a tape-measure and measured the scale mark to ensure 1 inch = 6 feet! My intention is to try and build it in a similar way to the real thing (plastic allowing) and have some form of interior, and have the hatches removable. The reason I wanted to do it 1/72 was so I could get a couple of crew for it, and it should be easier at that scale.. The book itself is a fabulous read, and Roy Clark has put a lot of detail on construction of wherries into the text. Along with loading, operation and things like lowering the mast when going under bridges. It is amazing to think that most wherries had a crew of two, some only one! One such part reads 'a wherry was not properly loaded unless a robin could drink off her decks'. Now, that got me to thinking about putting her in a Broads waterway, but all I would have was a mast and sail (black of course) and a bit of cargo visible. So I am going to try and do her as a full hull. It is funny how things turn out. I was searching for potential models, and found this: https://www.kartonmodellbau.de/epages/63481486.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=49327947 Hopefully, it goes to HMV models paper model of Gleaner and Albion. The trouble was it was only 1/250 scale, so they were too small. However, that led me to Albion, which is a wherry that is still in use, and forms the main subject of the Norfolk Wherry Trust, and I have found loads of photographs of that. My model may well end up as hybrid of the two, but the book does give some detail for Gleaner. She was built in 1894 and was originally called 'Orion' and had a load limit of 25 tons, so was a smaller wherry. He also gives details of Gleaner's colours, so hopefully I can get something reasonably close. I am likely to take some time with this, but first I need to figure out how I am going to do the hull. My first thought is to try and build the hold, cabin and coal bunker, then build the hull around it, thinking I can pack out the hull easier with a core already built up. I would also like to make the mast swivel on its tabernacle, but I will see about that later if I get that far! Any advice would be greatly appreciated, along with warnings if I say I am going to do something which is patently wrong! I have been known to mis-read plans, and my nautical knowledge is sketchy to say the least... I will report soon, all the best, Ray PS, Some wherries even went to sea, 8 of them sailed around to Gosport from Lowestoft - most made it, one had to be run up onto a beach when she ran into difficulties Edited August 19, 2018 by Ray S Tidy the post 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshanks Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Love It !! Glad I've got a front row seat ... Interesting way to build starting in the middle and working out. Be interested to see how it works. Always here if you want to talk through ... Kev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefy66 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Ok note book at the ready. Beefy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 hours ago, longshanks said: Glad I've got a front row seat … Don't believe him, he usually wants one in the back row! Martian 👽 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshanks Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Cor thought you'd been quiet ………….. now we know where you've been Lurking in the back row Kev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandsaw Steve Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 This looks like a Wherry good project! 🤣🤣🤣 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandsaw Steve Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 It doesn’t matter how many bad puns I make - I never grow Wherry of them. 🤪 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share Posted August 20, 2018 9 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: It doesn’t matter how many bad puns I make - I never grow Wherry of them. 🤪 12 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: This looks like a Wherry good project! 🤣🤣🤣 My Dad said I was rubbish at puns, I am going to have to introduce him to yours and see what he says! 😁 It is a shame these boats never got to Liverpool - the famous song could have had a different name! I have been re-thinking the 'build-from-inside-out' plan - I may have a go at building a balsa core and then trimming out the cavity. I have a number of strips of balsa so I could make up a 5-tier club sandwich of balsa, cut out the hold/cabin/tabernacle area then skin the bottom of the hull. Choices, choices! Progress (of sorts) soon hopefully... All the best, Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06/24 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Definitely aboard for this. A Sir Garnett of Arthur Ransome ilk is one of my long term wishlist builds... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06/24 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Something I've never quite managed to get my head around is the slipping keel. How did that work I've always wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshanks Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 31 minutes ago, 06/24 said: Something I've never quite managed to get my head around is the slipping keel. How did that work I've always wondered. From the horses mouth so to speak https://www.wherryalbion.com/albion/glossary.php# Go down to keel. Great site for anyone interested in Wherries across the …. No don't go there leave the puns to Steve. @Ray S Been looking over the plan, certainly nicely detailed, should take a lot of the guess work out of the work. Don't have the plans for a wherry in my collection ... Kev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnWS Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Our old naval whalers had a small drop keel. The keel was hinged - pulled up for rowing & stowage, and dropped for sailing. I remember to first time we took one out for sailing practice. We rowed out to deeper water, raised the mast and sail, and then were blown immediately straight back to shore. We'd row out again & be blown back to shore. We did this three or four times, each time trying to figure out what we were doing wrong. Then someone remembered we should drop the keel before we raised the sail. No issues after that. We did provide entertainment for those watching on shore, though. Edited August 20, 2018 by JohnWS 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadog Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Nice choice, I shall enjoy watching it come together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 22 hours ago, longshanks said: Cor thought you'd been quiet ………….. now we know where you've been Lurking in the back row Kev Well you did say you worry when I'm quiet! Martian 👽 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 (edited) Hello all, thanks for the interest in this subject! Well, it is time to start, so off I go! I have decided to make this up as a 'sandwich' - Three layers, top, middle and bottom. I have chosen balsa as the main shape-maker for Gleaner. By laying my various balsa thicknesses on to the plan, I chose the three pieces that would go to make up the depth of the hull, with just a little to spare extra. I have started on the 'filling' first - basically the hold/cabin/mast area. The reasoning behind this is that I can hopefully cut out the shape of the main hull, sand it to size, and then cut out the area I need to have opened up. This will then make for a rather delicate structure, so then (if it stays intact) I can add the 'bread' parts, top and bottom, each giving a bit more strength. Once the three layers are done, I can use the lines plan to help sand the hull to its proper shape. First, I cut out the plan shape of the boat, and attached it to the middle layer: I used a Pritt Stick as the glue for the paper/balsa, it seems to come off again easily enough when required, but sticks well when you handle or sand it: Because balsa is so soft, I used a craft knife to cut out the basic shape of the wherry. This was fine, except that I did not keep my knife vertical, and I created quite an undercut where the lower part of the hull would be. Repair number 1! Thankfully I had not chucked the cut-off bit of wood away, so was able to stick it back in. It was not quite a perfect fit, but as I intend to skin the boat later it was less important, but that will be a technique I will have to learn as I go along. Then I cut out the hold/cabin/mast area as best I could. I was a lot more careful this time with the knife, and I utilised some files this time too. Some of the brilliant modellers on BM have shown their tool kit that they work with. One of them is even in thrall of their tools due to the number of parties the tools have when the modeller is at home sleeping and the tools are alone in the shed (palace!). So, in true BM fashion, here is my tool kit for this build, and to be honest, I cannot see them boogying any time soon! This is one reason I chose balsa wood to do it this way. I had seen some Basswood but I could not have got the central cut-outs done. The next job will be to try and sort out the top deck. This will involve a lot of sanding to get the sheer and port/starboard camber on the deck. I am minded to do it in two halves, fore and aft as the wood will get rather thin in the middle. When it is fitted, I can then cut upwards from the middle section to open up the hold etc. It too will be skinned to create the deck planking, but I have to remember that Roy Clark says that there are no planks along the sides of the hold on the main deck, but was smooth wood. Must remember, must remember... Thanks for looking, and all comments and assistance will be greatly appreciated! All the best, Ray Edited August 26, 2018 by Ray S Tidy the post 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgizlu Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Watching, absorbing and learning. Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) On 8/27/2018 at 9:07 AM, robgizlu said: Watching, absorbing and learning. Rob Hmm, not sure about the learning bit Rob! I am currently wondering if I have gone about this the right way! I added the top layer of balsa and trimmed out the openings for that, then fitted the lower hull, clamped the lot between a board and some heavy books to help the glue set. Then it was sanding time! I have tried to get the curvature on the top deck as near as I can get to the plans - the top deck curves over the centre-line, and there is a pronounced sheer fore and aft. I don't think I am too far out with how it has ended up. Then I have tried to produce the underwater lines. Here I am less sure of how things have gone. I cannot mentally imagine the lines but have ended up with something that looks boat-like. The bow... and the stern... and finally it is funny how perspective shifts when you take a photo with a wide-angle lens - the boat and plan are the same size! I will be skinning the wood to get the 'clinker-built' look, which means that the 'wooden' planks will be visible. I was thinking of doing this with plastic card cut to shape, but am toying with using card instead on the assumption that it will conform to the hull shape better. I will practice both before I progress, so the next update may be some time away. If anyone wants to see how a wherry should turn out model-wise, have a look in the Model Boats magazine September 2018, there are a couple of beauts in there! I think I should have built this with hull frames rather than this way, but I am going to continue, and if I need to put it in a 'water' setting to hide the lower hull. I shall! I wonder if I can get a 1/72 scale robin to show it drinking off the deck? I will post more soon, I am not giving in on this, but it may not be too wherry-like for the purist! All the best, any advice always welcome, Ray Edited September 7, 2018 by Ray S Tidy the post 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadog Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Coming along well! Not sure I'd want to do a whole hull in balsa, mind. All the more credit for getting it to behave. Using frames or bulkheads does get you the camber of the deck. Watching with interest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshanks Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Hi Ray Opening up the hold (I quite understand the desire), you're caught between a rock and a hard place, The wherry hatch unusual in how close to the sides of the boat it comes. As seadog suggests it's often simpler to use a skeleton frame and infill. This gives you guide. Not much use in your case though ... If you do run into problems along he way I would perhaps suggest having the tarpaulin folded back, a few of the hatch boards removed and a glimpse of the cargo/hold. In the mean time I reckon you're doing a grand job and look forward to seeing you progress Kev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06/24 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 For reasons known only to itself, the internet isn't letting me like posts, so I'm putting digit to tablet to say what an inspirational build this is. Really great work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 Hello all! I have not forgotten about this project, but I have to say I have been having a spot of bother with progressing. My plan was to skin the boat with plastic card, so I used a guillotine to trim 20thou card to 4mm widths, and then attempted to stick them to the wood. Way back in the distant past I scratchbuilt an AD Sparrow scout biplane, and successfully managed to skin the rear nacelle with card over balsa, but do you think I can get the card to stick this time? I have tried CA, CA Gel, PVA and so on, but no luck. Then I tried skinning with paper trimmed to the same width, but again no luck. Then, I decided to slather the hull with Isopon P38 Easy Sand filler, with the intention of sanding it down and making this 'carvel' (like the Albion is) built rather than 'clinker' built (like Gleaner was). I am going to have to see how this sands down. Plan B (or is it Plan L now?) could be to order the 1/200 card model I put a link for in post #1, and scale it up then transpose it to plastic. I will keep you all informed, I just have to get the little grey cells working a bit better than they have been recently! All the best, and I hope there is progress soon, Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshanks Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 The joys of model making Ray 🙂 I've stuck plastic to Isopon before which may or may not help. Failing that remember you can move carvel to clinker in the paint stage with masking. Or indeed use tape to form the planks. HTH Kev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 11 hours ago, longshanks said: The joys of model making Ray 🙂 I've stuck plastic to Isopon before which may or may not help. Failing that remember you can move carvel to clinker in the paint stage with masking. Or indeed use tape to form the planks. HTH Kev That is good to know Kev, all is not lost yet! For some reason I had not thought about using tape, despite doing just the same thing on other builds. And it would give some texture too. Time for some cogitation. I will persevere one way or another... Ray 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadog Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 I've used 3sheet Bristol board planks over balsa using old fashioned 'Seccotine' which is a hide glue - still use it as well. Got it from Lucy Coad at Square Piano. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 (edited) On 9/25/2018 at 11:24 AM, seadog said: I've used 3sheet Bristol board planks over balsa using old fashioned 'Seccotine' which is a hide glue - still use it as well. Got it from Lucy Coad at Square Piano. Hello Seadog, thanks for that link. I must admit I would never have thought to look at Pianos for glue, but it is logical isn't it? I also must say I almost died of fright when I first saw the price of the Seccotine, then realised there were smaller quantities available! Well, I think the Wherry is now back on track. I have mentioned that I tried to skin the balsa core with plastic card. I had carefully measured and cut a whole stack of 20thou card into 4mm lengths with my trusty guillotine... ...and was quite happy with how they had turned out. It was one of the first times I had successfully managed repeat operations concerning plastic and cutting out. When I tried to glue them to the boat, they would not stick though. I tried PVA, CA and CA Gel to no avail. I strongly suspect it was my fault, as was the fact that I could not get paper strip to stick either. I think it was a lack of preparation on the wood that caused it, along with not pre-bending the plastic strips. So, after a happy intervention by @longshanks a couple of posts ago, I sat down and thought it through. I had given the balsa a good slathering of Davids Isopon P38 Easy Sand automotive filler, but it went on rather like the Himalayas, not smoothly. I had a great hour or two outside in the glorious sun sanding that lot down to a relatively smooth finish, then gave the lot three or four coats of Revell acrylic varnish to hopefully give the next stage something to stick to rather than dusty wood. In the meantime, I found something my Dad gave me a little while ago and had forgotten about: Yippee! Another tool to my armoury and one that might be quite useful. I still have to improve my workbench though: At least I can now hold something while I work on it two-handed. This was important, because I realised that the planking not working was actually a 'Good Thing', because I had forgotten to add the slipping keel. From Roy Clark's book: "One feature on a wherry which is seldom seen in the 'slipping keel'. But if you look either side of the stem post you will notice two, curved iron straps, with an eye on the end of each of them. As the name implies, this keel can be attached or removed as required and the straps help centre it up for fixing. Two lanyards with tell-tale knots ensure it is properly in position to take the two, sometimes three, self-centring bolts which hold it in position. When the keel is removed these bolt holes are made watertight with screw plugs. The slipping keel was the last improvement made to the wherry and dates only from about 1880. Being made of wood it floats to the surface when released and very often, when approaching shoal water, it is unshipped and towed astern. Crews became so adept at working it that you were reckoned a pretty poor hand if you shipped more than a bucketful of water when getting your bolt in". I have got a wood ship kit in the stash which I started way back in the 1990's but got stuck, so I raided one of the wood strips I would use for the first layer of hull planking, and cut it to size, then, I used my vice! That allowed me to shape it to something approaching the rather curved look of the slipping keel. Oh boy, was it ever so much easier trying to do this with some proper tools! I even used my wood file I have got as well. Although it is not an exact match, it looks fairly close. I then borrowed a technique that @seadog showed in one of his posts recently, and used the 'Ray' version of a treenail. Instead of me using wood and stripping it down to a very thin piece, I used a section of florists wire to try and hold the keel in place. I had managed to drill straight down through the 3-ply plank (one went askew but we can keep that a secret, can't we?), and then I fitted the wire into the correct holes and pushed the lot into the keel position on the balsa hull underside. Balsa, being somewhat soft(!), took the marks well and I drilled into them to ensure it would be lined up later. I glued the wire pins in with gel CA (ensuring they did not sit proud of the lower line). Then I tried the bit that had flummoxed me the other day, the planking. Kev (longshanks) had suggested tape to produce the clinker-built stepping that 'Gleaner' had. I got some 6mm masking tape and put down a central 'plank', and luckily found I could still see the pilot holes for the keel fittings. After pressing down the tape like mad to ensure it had stuck properly, I fitted the keel with gel CA (this is not a working slipping keel) and tried to make sure it was vertical. There was a bit of a gap between keel and hull bottom, so I used some Perfect Plastic Putty to fill that, then came the fun time! I carefully fitted the rest of the 'planking, and laid one strip one side, then one the other until the job was done. After laying each strip, I buffed the tape down with a paintbrush handle, and tried to sharpen the edges with a metal probe where the tape layers overlapped, to give the clinker 'effect'. How close I am to getting the effect right I know not, but my good lady Jane reckons it looks okay to her! In the above picture the planking is in progress and I think you can see the plank effect taking shape. After I finished the whole process, I trimmed the stem and stern post areas (they will be dealt with better later on) and flooded the area with thin CA to try and hold everything in position. Then after that had dried, I gave all the masking tape a good coat of Humbrol enamel Satin Varnish which should help keep the tapes together and in situ. If there are any inaccuracies in this build, can I just please point out this from the book: "the old-time wherry-yard was a 'yard' in name only. There were no cranes, gantries or equipment of any sort, no slipways even for launching (which) usually took place on rollers". There were also no plans to work from. That is my excuse! Oh yes, one other thing "building a wherry was thirsty work and demanded plenty of strong ale within easy reach", to which I agree... Thanks for looking, and thanks for putting me back on the straight and narrow again Kev! Ray Edited September 27, 2018 by Ray S Tidy the post 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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