British P40B or C?

[kashiide]

Good morning gentlemen

while modelling Desert Air Force Tomahawk,i came to wonder:

 

on pilot notes and manual,it appear that we have 2 different instrument panels.

 

first one,the same that we have on American use P40B and 😄

 

 

then the second one,only on British P40s,AFAIK,seems like a second Panel has been sticked on the first one:

 

so,those 2 configurations existed on British P40C,or the first one is P40B(no glass armor) and the second a C?i am a bit lost in this .

 

could somebody please clarify this?

 

[Selwyn]

6 minutes ago, kashiide said:

Good morning gentlemen

while modelling Desert Air Force Tomahawk,i came to wonder:

 

on pilot notes and manual,it appear that we have 2 different instrument panels.

 

first one,the same that we have on American use P40B and 😄

 

 

then the second one,only on British P40s,AFAIK,seems like a second Panel has been sticked on the first one:

 

so,those 2 configurations existed on British P40C,or the first one is P40B(no glass armor) and the second a C?i am a bit lost in this .

 

could somebody please clarify this?

 

If the second panel is a sticky label over the first panel  this is an official amendment. Air Publications at that time were amended (updated)  by providing a paper label that was glued over  the original  text or picture. Probably the pilots notes were  produced using original US information and then  updated to show the correct RAF configuration.

If there are two seperate panels it indicates that the  pilots notes covered two standards of aircraft, probably the P40B and C.

 

 

Selwyn

[kashiide]

well,sorry i did nt make my self clear.

 

on the second picture,there is really a double pannel,and it is not just a modified photo.please note on this picture too:

 

 

plus,on the first picture from the pilot note,we can see the Barr and stroud gunsight mount,so it cant be a picture took from some American documentation

[Graham Boak]

As I see it, in the top posting the first picture is an early (and incidentally unarmed) aircraft.  Possibly originally US or French?  The second picture shows that the British have required a slightly different layout of the instruments (they did have a standard arrangement of the key 6 instruments in the shape of a T, but I'm not sure that's what we see here.)  There are also rather more instruments for the pilot to monitor.  The small panel in the top right shows that a modified version of the top row was adopted later.

 

In the third posting we can see the modified version.

 

That Curtiss chose to do it by means of an overlay is just one engineering approach.  Presumably they thought it easier that way.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Graham Boak

[kashiide]

13 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

As I see it, in the top posting the first picture is an early (and incidentally unarmed) aircraft.  Possibly originally US or French?  The second picture shows that the British have required a slightly different layout of the instruments (they did have a standard arrangement of the key 6 instruments in the shape of a T, but I'm not sure that's what we see here.)  There are also rather more instruments for the pilot to monitor.  The small panel in the top right shows that a modified version of the top row was adopted later.

 

In the third posting we can see the modified version.

 

That Curtiss chose to do it by means of an overlay is just one engineering approach.  Presumably they thought it easier that way.

 

so the first one(on top of post) can be a C or more probably a B?

 

or both are C types,one early and one late product?

[gingerbob]

B and C are US versions.  British ones were (mostly?) built to British specs, H-81<something>, so don't expect them to correspond to US variants.

[Graham Boak]

In his Curtiss Aircraft 1907-1947, US historian Peter M Bowers states that "discrepancies and contradictions exist in Curtiss records matching Tomahawk and Kittyhawk designatins to RAF serials and equivalent US Army models."  Working from British official records, he identifies the Tomahawk Mk.I with the P-40, or Model 81.   The Tomahawk Mk.IIA, or Hawk 81-A2, he describes as being equivalent to the P-40B with protective armour.  The Tomahawk Mk.IIB are "generally equivalent to the P-40C" and were also Hawk 81-A2 except for the 100 diverted to China, which Curtiss designated Hawk 81-A3.

 

This book was published by Putnam in 1979, so there may have been some more recent research clarifying the "discrepancies and contradictions", but if so I haven't seen them.

[Dana Bell]

As Bob and Graham (and the late Pete Bowers) have indicated, British Tomahawks were "generally equivalent" to their American counterparts, but they were not the same.  The first attempts at production commonality didn't turn up until the P-40D/E, and even then there were numerous differences.

 

When the US "stole" Tomahawk wings from Curtiss' British production to repair P-40s as P-40Gs, they found that even the wing mounts were in different places.  Adapters were eventually manufactured to attach the wings.  For modelling purposes, the long-nosed P-40s and Tomahawks can be close enough, but the actual aircraft were different.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[Selwyn]

If you notice the top picture is marked H81A-2.

 

Selwyn

[kashiide]

Thank you all for the answers

 

 

[BS_w]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 1:03 PM, kashiide said:

 

 

then the second one,only on British P40s,AFAIK,seems like a second Panel has been sticked on the first one:

 

 

This is a cockpit of the french contract, on a better pic  we can see a letter on the engine controls. They are

G for Gas, E for essence, and H for Hélice

instead T/Throttle, M/Mixture and P/Propeller on US or british airplanes.

All name plate were changed or over the raised markings(rudder pedal, trim)when Curtiss

allocated these airplane to British

 

Edit: on the third pic, the dial of fuel cock shows 5 ways, probably Off/Main/Wing/Reserve... and Belly?

 

Et le D520? il avance?

Edited August 16, 2018 by BS_w

[SelwynWilliams]

I have recovered a lot of instruments etc from an underwater wreck of a Tomahawk AH845 lost 8th November 1941. It has many parts marked 75 Mohawk then others marked 81 Tomahawk and even fishtail engine exhaust stubs marked 87 for Kittyhawk. The instrument panel is just like the one on top with the same holes and the clock is a 12 3 6 9 clock unlike the later clocks. The rudder pedals are marked in French to release the parking breaks, French fuses. The fuselage fuel gauge seems to have an overlay going up to 47 gallons, there is a strip screwed on to the top of the instrument panel saying "SAFE APPROACH SPEED 150/160 K.P.H." I presume the gauge is in litres and that the instrument showing the speed is in KPH as this plane was bound for France then diverted to Britain and the RAF before being assigned to 400 RCAF in England. Have you got a better photo of the above instrument panel? I have what looks like another panel and this may be the one that sat underneath the top one.I will investigate this. How do I load photos on here?

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, SelwynWilliams said:

How do I load photos on here?

they need to be online somewhere,  there are various photo hosts, eg flickr, village photos, if you have any personal webspace they could go there.

HTH