Redcoat2966 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) Morning all.......this will be the next project.....my first British AFV since a Cromwell back in the 70's. The kit itself should be with me in a week or so, as I picked it up from a seller in China free shipping for £20....thought it not a bad deal. Decided on the Voyager PE upgrade set, minus the fenders. I'll thin the kit fenders down where necessary; but it'll be muddied up so may not be an issue in the end; and of course Friuls. Well. Once the kit arrives it'll be a few day's drawing and writing up a plan and sequence of attack on this one. Until then, all the best...... Edited August 15, 2018 by Redcoat2966 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbasket Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 £20 and free postage? That is a good deal. It would cost you £30 from Hannant's plus postage. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 Yeah, thought it was a deal. I’ve been looking for a Brit AFV for some time. Total cost of the project wasn’t bad at £55 Friuls £20- picked them up at the Telford show Kit £20 - Ebay free ship PE £11 - Ebay free ship Resin cables £4 - Ebay free ship looking forward to getting my teeth into it 🤓 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrancisGL Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 A very interesting model, and the rest of the add-ons that accompany it will undoubtedly be the icing on the cake of the good work you will do ... cheers mate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris B Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Can't wait for start. Who was selling the Friuls in Telford for £20, Panzershop? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, FrancisGL said: A very interesting model, and the rest of the add-ons that accompany it will undoubtedly be the icing on the cake of the good work you will do ... cheers mate Hi Francis......yeah, I thought so; Instead of the standard Cromwell...... 20 hours ago, Kris B said: Can't wait for start. Who was selling the Friuls in Telford for £20, Panzershop? Hi Kris......I think it was Friul themselves, or a Polish distributor. They had all their selection at £20 a pop. I picked up a 6 set's. Intend to do the same again next show. And glad to have you both along for the ride.......and here it starts.... As I'm still waiting for the main hull to arrive, I kicked off with the Voyager PE set. Now......I had a Voyager set recently for my Zugkraftwagen, and was, well; decidedly disappointed in accuracy and some parts being pretty much pointless as I described on the thread for that one. I have to say they don;t disappoint and area consistent so far......... Here is are the first parts done. I took a look at the stowage bins on the left and right of the main hull. They just need their hinge and locking parts added then complete.......... but A - The front lids on the duo on the left side of the AFV (the two closest in the pic) are at least 1mm short left to right both sides. This also applies to the lower fronts with the bolt/screw features. They too fall noticeably short on width. B - The single stowage box unit on the right of the AFV looking from the front, fall's quite short as regards the front top lid. This one is approaching 3 to 4mm short left to right. C - The feature of using a ball point to produce a raised strengthening in the steel stamping is all well and good.....but it would help if the indentation given as a guide to produce them was on the correct side. I assume this is what your supposed to do and run a ball point along this indentation. If I did, the raised stampings would be internal. I could easily flip them, but the front section this would have the bolt/screw heads inside..............so I have decided to proceed with them as they are.......put it down to Friday night stowage bins..... The clasps and locking detail were pretty fiddly. I have to say, there is something to following "exactly" to the original; but I feel that in places a little artistic license is required. The catchments for the clasps would have been better a little longer, so as could be put through and bent over a little. I am contemplating making my own to do this. I also took a look at the tow cable set I got from Euraka. Now, it was only £4, but the detail is a little soft on the centre sections. I intend to rebuild the straps holding this detail together along with the looped end's with some lead foil. Just bring in some better definition. The cable itself is nice and soft, so will be really nice to drape and position when installed. Overall, not so bad. Now I'm off to tackle those really long hinges on the stowage units........., catch you all soon.... Simon. Edited August 17, 2018 by Redcoat2966 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenoz Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 enjoy making those clamps... Are those bins glued together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 Hi Silenoz....yeah, they are fiddly I have to say. In fact I have to now use an old airbrush needle to place tiny drops of glue on them......and yes, they are all glued. I came a cross a new range of Gorilla Glue instant extra strong gel. Really nice stuff........I was using VMS Flexible. That's good, but doesn't have the grip as Gorilla Glue. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbasket Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 The stowage bins are looking good Simon, even if the lids are a bit short in length. I went down a different route when I made a Cromwell a few years ago, and used the kits shell of the bin and replaced the lids with ones made from pewter foil. You can bend then and generally distress them easily. For my Centaur, I've got the Eduard etched bins, which are a lot simpler, ie; no working hinges to make. If you are after some walk around photos of the Centaur, have a look at this site;http://svsm.org/gallery/centaur . The photos are of the exhibit at Saumur Tank Museum, but ignore the barmy paint scheme. You could also try Toadman Tank Photos. He's got walk arounds of a Centaur and a Cromwell. John. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Always love a good British armour build so will be following this with interest. Nice work on the PE boxes despite the errors with the parts. I'll be watching your use of the voyager set with interest as I've got a couple of their Sherman sets to see what you think of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 RMASG seems to be flavour of the month at the moment. Another one for me to watch as this is another long-term project of mine, with much the same set of parts. Although I have the HobbyBoss plastic tracks and the Accurate Armour wading set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, bigfoot said: Always love a good British armour build so will be following this with interest. Nice work on the PE boxes despite the errors with the parts. I'll be watching your use of the voyager set with interest as I've got a couple of their Sherman sets to see what you think of them. 1 hour ago, Das Abteilung said: RMASG seems to be flavour of the month at the moment. Another one for me to watch as this is another long-term project of mine, with much the same set of parts. Although I have the HobbyBoss plastic tracks and the Accurate Armour wading set. Morning both......glad to have you along......and yes, I agree DA the Cromwell is a popular one. I managed to get the stowage box's finished this morning. In spite of the Voyager error in width of the front lids they don;t look too bad. My only critique of PE set's in general is sometimes absolute adherence to exact detail can sometimes be tedious. Take for example the little catches that the locking clamps grip to. They expect you to put a bend in them to hook under, they only measure maybe 1.5mm long......For me, a little longer wouldn't have hurt..even for the purists...I think after this little exercise; I'll probably in future in these case's, make new one's......also on these. I didn't go for the hinges supplied. I build mock one's with brass rod, grooved to represent the breaks in the hinge part, with two strips of brass fret from other PE sets each side. I managed to get the tracks done also, all chemically etched.....I decided after the last track set's I've done - to do them at the beginning, as they can be tedious at the end....., even with though the chemical etching, they still need some help, so they go on the paint list at the end. I see you said you got some Hobby Boss for yours DA.....I bought some of those for my Sturer Emil.....I have to be honest, they didn't work for me......and went for the Friuls in the end....you'll have to let me know your take on them DA. Maybe they just didn't do a good on on the Sturer's..... Well, here are the bins, catch you all later.....and thanks again...... Edited August 19, 2018 by Redcoat2966 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbasket Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 The bins look good Simon. One thing that I've noted on photos of Cromwells/Centaurs, whether they be museum exhibits or the real deal, is that there is often quite a bit of damage to the bin lids. Therefore, maybe a way of sort of disguising the discrepancy would be to bend the edges up. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Yes, I agree that Voyager in particular can very OTT with their details compared to some other brands. Eduard can be simpler, for example. And they sometimes get it wrong: example - German tow cable holders which were solid pieces are done by Voyager as a 5-sided box to be folded. In that case, a resin piece or a length of plastic section (as Voyager often include) would have been better. Folding up brass hinge tabs around wire has never worked for me no matter how I've tried to do it. The real ones are bent round in a special machine. Distressing the box lids isn't a bad idea. You could also, if it's not too late, have one partly open with kit inside or even hanging out. Break the relationship between lid and bin edges. But don't go too OTT. RMASG Centaurs were essentially new off the boat, and only operated ashore for about 10 days - so they wouldn't have got too battered and weathered and didn't seem to get very festooned with kit. I just baulk at paying the price of Friuls, even at "only" £20. And I'm not overly impressed with the joins I've seen. The bevelled clipped ends of the wire look like such unless each cut end is filed flat. And they need to be carefully positioned so that the outside ends are all even. But tracks had pins with heads, which Friul don't represent. They can look like wire in a hole. I have seen headed pins suggested instead, especially entomology pins - the ones you spear dead insects on! I also have a problem with chemical blackening of white metal tracks. Most countries' tracks by WW2 were made of a high manganese content steel. British ones certainly were. And these were never a manky black, although some may have been painted black. Spare links were routinely painted. Their virgin colour was a metallic goldy-brown, a bit like bronze but not quite: very hard to represent. Their oxide was a grey-brown colour, not red/brown/orange. The wear points on the spuds and along the inside runs did not wear to a silver or graphite colour as so often depicted, but to the goldy-brown colour. This photo of the Centaur at the Cobbaton Collection sort of shows it. Hard to capture in photos. BTW, the SCC15 finish on this tank is believed to be original, supporting the argument that at least some were repainted from SCC2. And the figures are clearly stencilled. I wonder if stencils were produced for the graduations. This photo of the Tortoise track captures the colour better. And this was my attempt to reproduce it. A colour from Xoma (a Russian paint company) called Burnt Metal followed by a couple of coats of Track Wash (MiG, AK or similar), later drybrushed back with the base colour after mudding. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 Hi DA My preference is moving towards Aber PE........ I have used Eduard and they are in some case's OTT like Voyager. Unfortunately I have about 8+ PE set's in reserve by Voyager and Eduard.....I might list them on Ebay or on here if I can find some Aber alternatives. I agree on folding the PE around a rod is nigh on impossible without the special tool. I saw one on AliExpress recently.......Maybe I might invest in one in the future.........I like the brass rod grooved to mimic a hinge myself now......especially if I am not working towards a moveable hinge. I like the chemical blackening for the sole reason it has a surface then that doesn't chip of come off as easily as paint. I then do all the colouring with transparent tints and pigments to get the right shades etc. To eliminate any visible wire showing as you describe I go back once washed from blackening and pull out each pin about 2mm, then clip off the excess. Then push them back in with the tip of my tweezers. They sit "just" inside the hole with sufficient space for micro blob of CA. .....theres one thing with the Cromwell tracks I noticed. Both side are the same....from what I can see, there's no left and right set like in AXIS AFV's. So just having the rods inboard of the hole is needed here as one side has the pin side visible. Until the main kit arrives, I've switched back to my FLAK 38 for the Zugkraftwagen....so the Centaur is on the shelf for a week or so.... Cheers all and have good start to the week tomorrow....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted September 12, 2018 Author Share Posted September 12, 2018 Evening all......not been around much lately and only just catching up with the recent posts on projects. But got some time in this week on and off and managed to get it to the primer stage. Had some issues with the Voyager here and there....but nothing too bad......a few parts that just had bad measurements, or were just beyond reason on the complexity.....on some parts , it would have been better to make separate parts. The rear exhaust units for one........ Anyway, here's naked without primer. There are few parts missing like the lifting lugs on the turret. But they need to go on after the ranging decals.......looking forward to putting those on..... (not ) A few tools missing as they need to be painted off until final application on the fenders. I did the tracks Friuls first, but couldn't be bothers for the pics....I don;t want to handle them too much as issues in connections and scratches etc. Here we go Here she is all primed up. Certainly looks better and all the detail is visible. I decided even though Voyager supplied hinges and other detail for the back deck. I decided the Tamiya was more than adequate for the look. Sometime, PE can go a little too far. It would have been better to have the rear mud guards than pointless hinges and catches..... Nite all....off again for a week or so......so see you all around and will try to pop in on new posts on work in progress postings......cheers Simon. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbasket Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Nice work Simon. The stowage bins turned out fine in the end. I know it's a bit late now, but just a couple of points. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen any photos of Centaurs with Normandy cowls. If I'm correct, they were fitted to Cromwells later on as they came ashore onto things like the Mulberry Harbours, therefore not needing the deep wading gear that the Centaurs would have had. The other point, and again, I could so easily be wrong, the rear track guards on Centaurs were usually the plain type, without the "steps". The tank that you are modelling is one of the later types with the Cromwell type track guards, so could easily have had the rear guards as per the kit. Maybe someone like Peter can shed some light on that. John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 I think the BESA barrel should protrude somewhat further ........ Also - and it's a bit late now I know - Centaurs didn't carry the "hockey stick" track adjuster lever as they had a different worm drive idler tensioning system carried over from Cavalier - which Tamiya got wrong. I should have noticed and said something sooner: I suppose I presumed you knew. And the unifying primer colour makes things stand out more. Essentially they've kitted a Type D hull Cromwell VI but with the dial sight and no hull MG. Many (most?) tanks contracted as Centaur IVs were actually completed as Cromwell VIs, and those all had the Cromwell type idler adjuster as per the kit. Effectively the RMASG "Centaur IV" became Cromwell VI apart from the different idler adjuster. So Tamiya's confusion is perhaps understandable. The mechanism itself is mostly hidden behind the idler, and a dollop or two of greasy mud is a good disguise. Strangely, none of the after-market people have ever done a correction set for it - at least as far as I know. There's a similar discussion going on over on Missing Lynx. At some point pre-embarkation the RMASG tanks still had their full front trackguards fitted: the sloping Centaur type. I don't recall seeing them fitted in D-Day and later photos. But this is something else Tamiya goofed as their slope began level with the hull front plate and the front of the stowage bin, not at the brace bracket. It's less noticeable with the front portion removed, but still there - as in the standard Centaur IV picture on the right. Did T185071 join RMASG, I wonder? Seawolf is T185075. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carius Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Very nice progress Simon. Looking forward to see more news... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Stop press!! Hunter, as kitted by Tamiya, did have the flat-top trackguards. Which is really odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Right. Trackguards. It seems that the flat-top trackguards were introduced towards the end of Type C hull production and were standard on Type D hulls. Centaur IVs were built on both Type C and D hulls. Tamiya have kitted a Type D, so the flat-top trackguards are correct. Any Centaur IV with sloping trackguards must therefore be a Type C hull. Flat trackguards could be C or D, although D is more likely. So, you can only use sloping trackguards if you backdate the engine deck to a Type C. The hull gunner's vision periscope was reintroduced at about the same time as the revised trackguards, but photo evidence says that RMASG tanks with late Type C and Type D hulls, like Hunter above, had it removed along with the MG. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeren Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 19/08/2018 at 12:57, Redcoat2966 said: Morning both......glad to have you along......and yes, I agree DA the Cromwell is a popular one. I managed to get the stowage box's finished this morning. In spite of the Voyager error in width of the front lids they don;t look too bad. My only critique of PE set's in general is sometimes absolute adherence to exact detail can sometimes be tedious. Take for example the little catches that the locking clamps grip to. They expect you to put a bend in them to hook under, they only measure maybe 1.5mm long......For me, a little longer wouldn't have hurt..even for the purists...I think after this little exercise; I'll probably in future in these case's, make new one's......also on these. I didn't go for the hinges supplied. I build mock one's with brass rod, grooved to represent the breaks in the hinge part, with two strips of brass fret from other PE sets each side. I managed to get the tracks done also, all chemically etched.....I decided after the last track set's I've done - to do them at the beginning, as they can be tedious at the end....., even with though the chemical etching, they still need some help, so they go on the paint list at the end. I see you said you got some Hobby Boss for yours DA.....I bought some of those for my Sturer Emil.....I have to be honest, they didn't work for me......and went for the Friuls in the end....you'll have to let me know your take on them DA. Maybe they just didn't do a good on on the Sturer's..... Well, here are the bins, catch you all later.....and thanks again...... And I was thinking, HOW DID HE DO THESE HINGES! #awe Shouldnt have read further 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Sorry, trackguard saga again. On the other Centaur thread in this forum Bullbasket reckons that the Tamiya engine deck is in fact a Type C and not a Type D. The access hatch arrangement was different. So, assuming he is correct, that would give you a choice of either type of trackguard although the sloping style would certainly be more common on a Type C. All the CS tanks - Centaur and Cromwell - were built by Fowlers. But I'm not sure the information is known as to exactly when they implemented the trackguard change: during Type C production or at the Type D change. The engine deck is about the one part you never get to see, other than being able to tell if it has the vent or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoat2966 Posted September 20, 2018 Author Share Posted September 20, 2018 Hiya gang....I'm back......and have just run through above and on Bullbasket's Centaur build thread........seems I've built a real hybrid.....and I now this may be seen as heresy ..and taking a risk of being chased through the village by pitchforks .........but I'm sticking with it as it is.....except I might see if I can pry off the rear exhaust covers....they cover over the nice grill detail.....so I'll see where I get with that as the cryo is pretty strong stuff I use..... Thanks again chap's, enjoyed all your input......... On 9/14/2018 at 1:12 PM, Soeren said: And I was thinking, HOW DID HE DO THESE HINGES! #awe Shouldnt have read further Hi Soeren, it actually is just brass rod, with the lines grooved in with a large snap off blade. I marked the increments of the hinge and just ran the rod back and forth with the blade edge enough to indent the lines. There didn't seem to be any point trying to do the hinges they supply, as the lids weren't going to open or close types. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbasket Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 Simon, you build it the way that suits you, and enjoy it. John. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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