HMS Dido (Ikara Leander) 1979 - [WAFU’s away match]

[Chewbacca]

7 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

@Paul E‘s theory is the only remotely plausible one I’ve heard so far, so I’m going to assume he is right and move on - painting my 1/350 version accordingly.   [Besides, who am I to argue with a Greenie?]

 

Last night I fitted the PE prop guards, finished gluing the upper funnel band, did the final couple of PE doors, and re-sited the resin fairleads further outboard on the fo’c’s’le.  

 

But you’ll have to take my word for it because my phone battery was flat so I took no pics!  I’m out tonight, but tomorrow I plan to do the port bow fairleads, which should get me ready for primer... though I am still slightly niggling away with the idea of adding the spurnwater riund the deck edge.  It’s surprisingly prominent even at a distance - a clear line visible in that shot above and on Rothesay (at least, where there aren’t rows of matelots manning ship!).  It would look wrong if over-scale, though.  I might experiment with some 0.1mm wire and see how it looks.

 

 

Wasn't that basically what I said, although Paul explained it far more eloquently than me!

 

Good luck with the spurnwater.  Last time I tried fitting that to a model was a 1/96 ex-shipbuilder's model of HMS DANAE which had been trashed when a couple of Sea Cadets leant on the case it qas sitting in and it collapsed.  Quite a lot had been torn away but due to the scale I could use very thin strips of stained balsa wood

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

In my case the only options are either strips of PE railing (that’s what I used on the bridge roof, but longer bits would be a real challenge to clean up) or 0.1mm wire (I have lead or copper).  Or nothing, of course!

[Terry1954]

Another alternative might be Slaters rod. You can get it as fine as 10 thou, but I suppose you are looking at 20 or 30 thou here? Not sure of the actual size on the real thing or the cross sectional profile. I've successfully stuck it to resin with Tamiya ultra thin cement. Only issue with that would be joins, as each strip is 10" in length. A possibility to consider perhaps? 

 

 

 

[Paul E]

I wouldn't have thought that you really need to fit the spurn water as the bottom part of the pe railings will do that for you, unless that is you want to thicken it up. Love the progress so far your build is tempting me to get one of these.

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

After a few tests I am now siding with Paul - I couldn’t get the spurnwater to look the right scale, and the railings will provide enough of the effect to make the effort not worth it.

 

This is the fo’c’sle with the fairleads moved outboard - ignore the furthest away on on the port side, which still needs a lot of reduction via a file!  You can see, however, that the fairleads are right at the edge, with the bitts (bollards) noticeably further inboard - that’s how it is in real life, and the railings will emphasise it more.

 

So here is where we’ve got to as of this evening; a couple more ladders to add, then clean up before primer (should be this week, I think).

 

And here a closer view of the port waist (hangar roof not glued), giving some idea of the various things I have added to Peter’s excellent original [keeping in mind that most of this white metal & PE comes with the kit - only the funnel bands, the 40mm ready use lockers and the brass doors are extra in this view].  The doors on the boat deck by the funnel are staying as they are; they have nice definition and will largely be hidden by davits and boats anyway!

 

More soon - I am pretty happy with how this is going.

 

Crisp

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Terry1954]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I am pretty happy with how this is going.

 

The fo’c’sle is looking rather splendid and indeed the whole ship really looks the part, so you should be pretty happy I would say.

 

I can see Paul's point. I dug my Atlantic models Type 41 out earlier which although a bit more compact than a Leander in length and beam, made me realise that a spurn water and etched railings in this scale might be OTT.....

 

Terry

 

 

[Courageous]

Looking every bit a Leander, especially with the extra detail. You should be well chuffed.

What are you thinking about using for the anchor chains; PE or chain?

 

Stuart

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Actually, that’s a very good point, Stuart (you might inadvertently have delayed primer a few more days!).  The cable deck area of the fo’c’s’le is simplified in its raw form; I plan to add the hard points for the various slips that control the anchors and cable [the Seamanship teachers at Dartmouth would be proud: I can still recite “anchor slip”, “blake slip” and “blake bottle screw slip” 40 years later, though I now have to think quite hard to remember what they all do!].

 

Not a huge job; essentially 6 small blobs of styrene or resin.  The issue is whether the references I have with me show the layout of a Leander cable deck clearly enough.  I have a battered copy of the 1970s edition of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship Vol 1 at home [every ship modeller should have one, because they are a mine of information on anchors, davits, boats and all that Dabber malarkey, with very clear diagrams], and if I recall correctly, there’s a Leander cable deck in there.

 

There’s also a decision of what to do about a) the hawse pipes and b) the pipe down to the cable locker - drill or not drill?

 

In answer to your original question might be “neither”.  I have yet to see real chain that doesn’t look overscale, and PE can look very flat, even when twisted.  I have seen some very convincing-looking sennits [ooh, more nautical-speak from a WAFU] used -  one of Dvid Griffith’s excellent books has a very clear tutorial.  Though a sennit is actually a wire braid, done correctly it can look really convincing as anchor cable.  I am going to at least experiment with a 3-strand sennit before I make up my mind! 

[Courageous]

This place might be worth a look; 40, 23, 18, 14.5, and 9.5 links/inch. I have the middle three on order from that shop, so we'll see.

 

Stuart

[Roger Newsome]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The cable deck area of the fo’c’s’le is simplified in its raw form; I plan to add the hard points for the various slips that control the anchors and cable [the Seamanship teachers at Dartmouth would be proud: I can still recite “anchor slip”, “blake slip” and “blake bottle screw slip” 40 years later, though I now have to think quite hard to remember what they all do!].

 

Now we are entering my line of work, Riding slip, Blake slip and Blake Bottle Screw Slip. However as you've got the Bible which is BR67 I won't be required. 😟 😁

[Chewbacca]

9 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The issue is whether the references I have with me show the layout of a Leander cable deck clearly enough.  I have a battered copy of the 1970s edition of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship Vol 1 at home [every ship modeller should have one, because they are a mine of information on anchors, davits, boats and all that Dabber malarkey, with very clear diagrams], and if I recall correctly, there’s a Leander cable deck in there.

I've just had a look at my copy with is the earlier 1964 edition (gave my 1975 edition away for some strange reason) and there are nice clear diagrams of a cruiser and destroyer fo'cs'le (though it doesn't state which class) but no frigate, not even Rothesay class.  But if yours doesn't have the requisite information, I do have a very clear near vertical photograph of the fo'c'sle on the shipbuilder's model of DANAE that I fixed.  I know its a photo of a model but being a shipbuilder's model it should be pretty accurate, albeit representing her as built. 

[Chewbacca]

7 hours ago, Courageous said:

This place might be worth a look; 40, 23, 18, 14.5, and 9.5 links/inch. I have the middle three on order from that shop, so we'll see.

 

Stuart

I'd be very interested to hear what you think about that when it arrives.  I need some anchor cable for BULOLO

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I might take you up on that @Chewbacca; thanks.

 

However, I might not need to.  Searching through my photos I came across this [provenance unknown - but whoever took it is acknowledged and thanked]; a Leander cable deck!

 

At least, I had filed it with my other Leander shots, so I see no reason to doubt that it’s a Leander - certainly looks like one.

 

The kit has pretty decent cable holders (“capstans” to the non-specialist / not taught by CPO Roberts!).  You can clearly see here the slips I was talking about; the things that look like giant crocodile clips on a chain.  They are all of similar design and have a similar function; basically, to hold the cable (and usually the anchor).  They’re essentially a pair of jaws with a hinge at one end, held closed by a loop at the other end.  When dropping anchor, for instance, you get ready by preparing the anchor until it is held in position (hanging vertically below the hawse pipe) with a slip taking the weight.  When ready, a matelot knocks the loop off the jaws (literally, with a maul / sledgehammer), the jaws fly open and the anchor plunges into the sea making a very vulgar row.  

 

Other slips allow you to break the cable (i.e. detach it from the anchor - usually when coming to a buoy; you connect to the buoy using anchor cable) without the risk of the cable all rushing back into the cable locker, leaving nothing on deck.  The third type (the bottle screw slip - you can see one above the port cable above, directly below the centre hawse hole / Jackstaff) is what you use to hold everything tightly in place when not in use - especially the anchor itself very tightly clamped into its hawse; this lot weighs several tons, and you really don’t want it banging about loosely in a heavy sea.  A loose anchor would very quickly make a large hole in the bow.

 

Anyway.  Today I have been doing two things to the model.  Looking above, the two pale grey round things into which the cable disappears are called... I can’t remember!  Goose Necks??  They turn the cable through 90 degrees as it comes in and out of the cable locker directly below, and when not in use are plugged to stop the cable locker topping up with oggin.  Peter’s lovely clean fo’c’s’le doesn’t have these, so I made some.  I tried bending some tube, but even filling it first it simply tore - the bend is very sharp.  So then I carefully and slowly bent styrene rod, before cutting it and drilling out one end.  It took several attempts, but this phot shows them in position (seen from aft):

 

Though tiny, these took me a considerable time and involved some typically seamanlike swear words - but I think those will do nicely.

 

I then turned my attention to the anchors themselves.  Peter provides two options; either white metal or PE.  The PE ones are more refined in detail, as you’d expect, but they lack the sheer heft of a proper anchor - anchors are not exactly refined things - so I went for the white metal ones.  You are provided with full anchors (so you could pose them ready for dropping, or whatever), but when close up in their hawse you can’t see much of the stock, which means you have to file and cut a fair amount away for them to fit snugly.  From L to R: the port anchor ready for fitting; the starboard anchor as yet untouched; and. PE anchor that I experimented with and then used to measure the fit with the hull - you can see how much of the stock (the vertical bit) has been removed.

 

Finally for today, here is the port anchor glued in place (taken before the gooseneck thingies were fitted).  The starboard one is also done, but you don’t need a second photo!

 

That little lot has taken me over two hours; time to stop and have something to eat.

 

More next week.

 

Crisp

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Roger Newsome]

14 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 Looking above, the two pale grey round things into which the cable disappears are called... I can’t remember!  Goose Necks?? 

Navel pipes, or in the civvy world, spurling pipes. ☺ 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Of course.  I remember stupid jokes about navel gazing.  (Those long nights at sea just flew by...)

[Niall]

When bending plastic rod more than about 30 degrees I heat the rod over a soldering iron and let the rod's weight make the bend as the plastic softens. I used this method on the starting handle on the 1/16th scale Firefly I am building(the second picture in post 12) -

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235039820-116th-sherman-vc-firefly/

 

[Terry1954]

Nice anchor work there Crisp. All this talk of slips has this landlubber fascinated but somewhat confused. OK, so I do have my Day Skipper but the bow of the 40 foot boat I did it on doesn't quite resemble that of a Leander!

 

Great information on this thread as ever.

 

Terry

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

When I build them I’ll try to explain what the slips do... [putting my memory under pressure with Roger looking on!]

 

@Niall my bending technique wasn’t quite as scientific as that, but I did apply heat before bending slowly.  Doesn’t work on metal tube, though!

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

A couple of diagrams from the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship to illustrate what I have been talking about:

 

 

 

It says "typical arrangement", but apart from the distribution of bollards and fairleads around the edge, that's pure Leander.

 

More modelling soon!

 

C

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Earlier this week I talked about possibly using a sennit to represent scale anchor cable.  With Dido in London and me in Salisbury, I can't do any modelling until tomorrow... but I have been conducting a trial run.

 

This idea comes from David Griffith's "Ship Models from Kits" book (published about 10 years ago but still widely available); I've always looked at his results and thought it'd be worth trying, but this is my first actual attempt.  My only hesitation is that he generally models in 1/700, and I'm a 1/350 man.

 

Anyway, to get really technical, this is (apparently!) a four-strand square sennit; this one is deliberately done in relatively thick wire (it's "Medium" fishing wire, which from memory is 0.4mm) to test the concept...  but I think it shows real promise: 

 

[For scale, the vise is about 2" across its jaws, and the completed section of sennit is ¾" long.]

 

And second, from much closer in:

 

This week I will make one with the much thinner gauge copper wire I have up in London; I have 0.1mm & 0.2mm, and I'll try both.  But I actually think David Griffith is right; that looks more like anchor cable than either PE or jewellers' chain.

 

More soon

 

Crisp

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[longshanks]

Now that looks, the part even under magnification. Going to be very interesting to see with the finer wire

 

Kev

[Courageous]

3 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

David Griffith's "Ship Models from Kits" book

Just ordered myself a copy of that, thanks for the pointer.

 

It will be interesting to see how this technique works out in your scale of 1/350 and equally to see what's possible in 1/700 as I have a number of British Destroyers in the stash.

 

Stuart

 

 

[perdu]

I always, always learn good stuff when you delight us with a build Crisp

So can I see if I have the hang of this?

You basically trap four lengths of wire in the vise

Then you overlap plait them 

And keep going until there is enough 'cable' for the task?

 

This is something even I can do, I will practice

 

Now next

The pretty pattern of 'slips'

Each ch cable has three 'slips' in attendance (using the diagram appended)

Does letting go the anchor ('ook?) entail a three man/woman choreography to get them all 'hammered at the same synchronized moment?

Or does Jack/Jill disconnect the first two to rely then on last one to retain it?

(The terms Jack/Jill refer to the fully harmonised crew staffing on the ships of all Her Maj's Royal Navy of course)

 

I suspect it is the loosen two, hang it all on one system but it is really fascinating stuff to a Reeman, Forrester reader from way back

 

 

I'd imagine a cry of let go all slips would be very dodgy, but I just cannot remember how it goes in the books

 

I do now realise why the deck isn't cluttered with unused chain now, it is all stuck down the  navel 'ole

 

Tidy see, at sea

 

Loving this Crisp thanks

[Terry1954]

17 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

This idea comes from David Griffith's "Ship Models from Kits" book

I have that book also, and it is an excellent read. You wont be disappointed Stuart! Griffith's explains the process well for the four strand technique but its good to see your example using actual copper wire. Seems to bring it to life. As you say it will be interesting to see how it looks on 1/350

 

Great work here, and a high standard to follow when I eventually get around to one of my 1/350 builds!

 

Terry

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

3 hours ago, perdu said:

...can I see if I have the hang of this?

You basically trap four lengths of wire in the vise

Then you overlap plait them 

And keep going until there is enough 'cable' for the task?

 

 

Now next

The pretty pattern of 'slips'

Each ch cable has three 'slips' in attendance (using the diagram appended)

Does letting go the anchor ('ook?) entail a three man/woman choreography to get them all 'hammered at the same synchronized moment?

Or does Jack/Jill disconnect the first two to rely then on last one to retain it?

(The terms Jack/Jill refer to the fully harmonised crew staffing on the ships of all Her Maj's Royal Navy of course)

 

I suspect it is the loosen two, hang it all on one system...

It’s a slightly posher form of plait, Bill, but basically yes.  

 

Slips.  

 

Slips are basically all about control.  Anchor cable is heavy; if you let it get away from you it can spoil your whole morning;

 

This is from memory, so @Roger Newsome by all means correct me if I’m talking rubbish.

 

The bottle screw slip is about controlling the anchor; unlike the other slips, it is adjustable, and you use it to seriously tighten up the whole rig when not in use - especially to ensure that the anchor itself cannot move even if battered by a heavy sea.   You can also hold the anchor in place (i.e. seated outside the ship) and break (i.e. deliberately split) the cable, notably for use in mooring to a buoy, where you use the cable but not the anchor.

 

The riding slip controls the cable - particularly the part between the cable holder and the cable locker.  This allows you to break the cable without the risk of losing the whole lot down the navel pipe into the cable locker (because getting it out again is a right pain).  You can also isolate the cable from the cable holder (e.g. if the holder needs repair, or whatever), safe in the knowledge that the anchor end is held by the bottle screw slip and the inboard end by the riding slip.

 

The blake slip (as you rightly surmise) is the one you use to let go (drop) the anchor.  The fo’c’s’le party get the anchor ready to let go (ocasionally, for instance if the weather is really bad, they might prepare both anchors) by a) removing the bottle screw slip & riding slip, b) taking the weight on the cable holder (which has a flipping great hydraulic brake), c) removing the blake slip, d) veering the cable until the anchor is free of the ship’s side and hanging vertically (this is called “a-cock-bill” - and yes, sailors do still use all this odd and ancient nautical language), e) re-fitting the blake slip.  When ready, the (what was your phrase?) Jack/Jill Harmonised Crew - OK, one large sailor - lets the anchor go by knocking the blake slip off.  

 

When not in use you have all 3 slips on, partly to provide maximum security and also to allow you to isolate hydraulics from the cable holder.

 

Another popular myth is that the anchor alone holds the ship by digging into the bottom.  It does dig in, but the weight of cable lying on the bottom takes a lot of the strain; if you are at anchor and the weather gets bad, you veer out more cable - only in extremis would you drop a second pick (not least because getting them tangled up below the water is a whole heap of fun).

 

When dropping an anchor, you do NOT simply stand back and let it all whizz out - see the second video above, where they do exactly that, and end up ripping the whole lot out of the ship and losing it over the side. You control the rate at which the cable pays out using the brake, and the Captain “lays back” on the cable - basically you let go when the ship is almost stopped in the water, and immediately go astern to reverse the ship slowly away from the anchor.  If you get it right, the ship goes so slowly backwards that the brakeman has very little to do, and you also end up with a neatly laid-out cable, with no tangles, which is really easy to pick up again (weigh) when the time comes.  That can happen, but it’s unusual!

 

Most of the cable is stowed below deck in the cable locker.  At its very end it is connected to the ship via a deck clench (you can actually see the deck clench plunge out of that US ship’s hawse pipe in video 2!).  The very inboard end of the cable is called the “bitter end” (which is where the expression ‘to the bitter end’ comes from), because in the days before forged steel cable and hydraulic cable holders, the inboard end was attached to the ship via bitts (another word for bollards).

 

So yes; loosen two, hang (and then slip) one is basically it.  Trying to co-ordinate slipping more than one slip would be a recipe for catastrophe, and incredibly dangerous.

 

Incidentally, the reason more modern ships have a bower anchor (one where the flukes sit either side of the forepeak when not in use) is because they have a bow sonar dome, so you want all this heavy metal to stay as far away from it as possible.  This started with the later Type 22s.  Before that the more conventional position on either cheek was enough, because the sonar dome was on the ship’s bottom, roughly underneath the bridge.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU