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Spitfire squadron leader deliberately shot down by his own squadron?


Procopius

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I'm reading Brian Kingcome's A Willingness to Die, and on page 255, he mentions the story of a RAF Squadron Leader whose own squadron shot him down on a fighter sweep over France. It seems like an apocryphal tale or one of those urban legends which spring up during wartime, but I was wondering if any postwar research had determined a likely suspect.

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I'm sure I have read somewhere that Douglas Bader had actually (or perhaps allegedly) been (accidentally) shot down by his wingman on a fighter sweep over France, but I'm not sure if that is established as fact - do you think it might refer to that?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

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I read the other day about an incident where Spitfires shot each other down but it wasn't from the same Squadron.

 

It was on 23rd May 1942.

402 Sqn were returning from a sweep over the channel when the leader, Flt. Lt. Malloy in BM466 was attacked by another Spitfire. He was it in the engine and had to bale out over the channel (later rescued).

Malloy's number 2 (Fg. Off. Ian Keltie) took after the Spit which had attacked and got several 'hits' on it, before that aircraft crash landed at Hawkinge (AB170).

 

The pilot who had attacked in error was Fg. Off Jean-Marie Maridor of 91 sqn. 

He survived that incident too but on 3rd Aug 1944, he was tragically killed flying a Spitfire XIV, destroying a V1 which was (according to witnesses) diving towards Benenden School (being used at time as a military hospital).

I checked up and the incident is in the 402 Sqn ORB Summary of events for that date. It doesn't mention the results of any investigation. It says 402 Sqn Leader Morrow attempted to go to Hawkinge in a Magister to investigate the 'unfortunate incident' but was unable due to low visibility.

 

I did happen to meet the Nav of the Phantom that shot down a Jaguar, accidentally over Germany once. He said they went over to the Jag base and bought them some beers afterwards. I think the Jag pilot had to eject twice in his career (successfully).

 

Cheers Bob.

 

 

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Of course, Brian Kingcombe's excellent book came out quite some time before Andy Saunders research into Bader's shoot down, which would indicate that this knowledge had been around sometime prior to the book "Bader's Last Flight". It seems that "Buck" Casson thought he had shot down Douglas as he wrote a letter to him in 1945 explaining this. Apparently it did make it into the public domain, but was heavily censored. The fact that Casson said that the tail came off the aircraft he shot down, along with the fact that the pilot struggled to get out is compelling...along with the fact that Bader was at the rear of the German formation he was attacking. Casson had no knowledge that Bader was in that position and though he was picking off the German tail end charlie. Not concrete evidence, but certainly very convincing. I'm sure someone like Kingcombe would have heard of this post war to include in his memoir. Of course, it could have been a totally separate incident. Perhaps a "Piece of Cake" scenario where the Squadron just didn't like their CO! 🤔

 

Steve

Edited by fightersweep
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16 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

Perhaps a "Piece of Cake" scenario where the Squadron just didn't like their CO! 🤔

 

Steve

Yes, I was tired last night and didn't fully elaborate -- Kingcombe flat-out says the squadron in question deliberately shot down their CO after a period of heavy losses.

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It has been sometime since I read Kingcombe's book. I'm certain he wouldn't have stated that unless there was some truth to it. Might have to pitch that question over on the Flypast forum. Andy Saunders posts there and may know something about it.

 

Steve

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I've seen it said that Bader was fairly unpopular with some pilots, but not to that extent!  Sounds like a bar claim to me.  (The Kingcombe story. Not the Casson one.)

 

However rather a lot of Spitfires were shot down by the RAF.   Perhaps the saddest case were the pair of Mk.VIs with bolted shut cockpits.  Other types as well, of course.  i must admit being convinced that claims of He113s in the BoB were probably Hurricanes, given the common feature of the central radiator.

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Is it possible then that the Bader story got inflated or elaborated somewhere along the line? I'm sure there might have been a few that would have gladly shot him down....maybe not the whole squadron though! I wonder also what Kingcombe's thoughts on Bader were?

 

Have to agree on the He 113 thought. Would certainly make a lot of sense. Interesting though that they were often described as being silver.

 

Steve 

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7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

However rather a lot of Spitfires were shot down by the RAF.   Perhaps the saddest case were the pair of Mk.VIs with bolted shut cockpits. 

Wasn't Group Captain Dickie Barwell, the CO of Biggin Hill, shot down by Spitfires whilst flying a MkVI? Albeit a case of friendly (sic) fire rather than 'fragging'.

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On 8/11/2018 at 1:54 PM, Graham Boak said:

I've seen it said that Bader was fairly unpopular with some pilots, but not to that extent!  Sounds like a bar claim to me.  (The Kingcombe story. Not the Casson one.)

 

However rather a lot of Spitfires were shot down by the RAF.   Perhaps the saddest case were the pair of Mk.VIs with bolted shut cockpits.  Other types as well, of course.  i must admit being convinced that claims of He113s in the BoB were probably Hurricanes, given the common feature of the central radiator.

Bolted shut cockpits?

Why? Pressurized or... ?

 

/André

 

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27 minutes ago, Andre B said:

Bolted shut cockpits?

Why? Pressurized or... ?

 

/André

 

The Spitfire VI had a pressurized cockpit; the hood didn't slide, but was locked into place by four toggles. It was theoretically jettisonable in an emergency.

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If you're looking at friendly fire, you only have to examine some of the camera gun footage held by the IWM and spot the close calls.

However, back to the OP, there was always the recurring story regarding the deliberate shooting down of a fellow Spitfire pilot by a fellow squadron member during the Battle of Britain. Maybe just a story, but if true, not a pleasant one.

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1 hour ago, AndyL said:

If you're looking at friendly fire, you only have to examine some of the camera gun footage held by the IWM and spot the close calls.

However, back to the OP, there was always the recurring story regarding the deliberate shooting down of a fellow Spitfire pilot by a fellow squadron member during the Battle of Britain. Maybe just a story, but if true, not a pleasant one.

Yes, there seem to be a few iterations of this running about out there. I'd like to believe it's not true, or merely one of those "facts" that grew distorted as it was passed along, but it seems like it might be possible to investigate. There were what, 18 Squadron Leaders with 11 Group at any time? There probably aren't more than a hundred possible candidates, many of whom were never shot down. The more I think about it, the more difficult it seems it would be to pull off. The Spitfires would need to not have gun camera, or leave them switched off. I'm not sure how well UK-based radar could see into France, but I know between it and Y service, they generally had some idea of what was going on. And there's the ugly fact that if shot down, he might have survived to report on the circumstances of his downing unless someone made sure he didn't. 

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It possibly relates to  Bader being shot down although he was a Wing Commander rather than a Squadron Leader. He wasn't well liked by many pilots to put it mildly. As mentioned previously Kingcombe wrote it before the Casson story came out and perhaps didn't want to bad mouth a national hero. 

But to me it sounds like a story that gathered wings with the telling. A lot of wartime rumours are surprisingly persistent. Fake news if you like.

 

I have read a number of books about the RAF and there's occasional mentions of poor leaders. But they usually were shuttled off to other jobs where they weren't dangerous rather than shooting them down unless the enemy got there first.

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, noelh said:

It possibly relates to  Bader being shot down although he was a Wing Commander rather than a Squadron Leader. He wasn't well liked by many pilots to put it mildly. 

I think he may have been as disliked as he was liked, but many of his subordinates seem to have regarded him highly, including Denis Crowley-Milling, "Johnnie" Johnson and "Grumpy" Unwin.

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It isn`t so far fetched as it first seems,....... I know of one officer who was bent on getting a medal who is said to have been shot by his own lads ,.... and the officer who took over won the battle thanks to his better grip of the situation and tactics.  I`m sure that it was quite widespread during WW2 and we used to joke about it with certain officers too. 

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27 minutes ago, tonyot said:

It isn`t so far fetched as it first seems,....... I know of one officer who was bent on getting a medal who is said to have been shot by his own lads ,.... and the officer who took over won the battle thanks to his better grip of the situation and tactics.  I`m sure that it was quite widespread during WW2 and we used to joke about it with certain officers too. 

Would you mind elaborating further, by PM, perhaps, Tony? There seems an obvious candidate in the last thirty-six years, but I'd hate to be guessing wrong.

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27 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Would you mind elaborating further, by PM, perhaps, Tony? There seems an obvious candidate in the last thirty-six years, but I'd hate to be guessing wrong.

Tony might know more but I doubt it myself. By all accounts the opposition had a better opportunity and motivation than his own men. 

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I've followed this thread with interest, but unfortunately without any knowledge to chip in with.

 

If, however, a group of pilots came up with a plan to shoot their CO down, they had to be dammed sure that they were not found out, else they would face a firing squad themselves.

 

I find it very hard to believe that anyone would take that kind of chance.

 

On the other hand, an author like Martin Caidin would have loved the yarn.

 

/Finn

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11 hours ago, FinnAndersen said:

On the other hand, an author like Martin Caidin would have loved the yarn.

Derek Robinson was my thought, it reads a bit like one of his plot lines, Somewhere between Piece of Cake & A Good Clean Fight.

Steve.

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On 8/14/2018 at 8:56 PM, noelh said:

It possibly relates to  Bader being shot down although he was a Wing Commander rather than a Squadron Leader. He wasn't well liked by many pilots to put it mildly. As mentioned previously Kingcombe wrote it before the Casson story came out and perhaps didn't want to bad mouth a national hero. 

But to me it sounds like a story that gathered wings with the telling. A lot of wartime rumours are surprisingly persistent. Fake news if you like.

 

I have read a number of books about the RAF and there's occasional mentions of poor leaders. But they usually were shuttled off to other jobs where they weren't dangerous rather than shooting them down unless the enemy got there first.

 

 

 

 

You have to be careful when looking back at  boyhood heroes  such as Bader and Gibson,  They were human beings just like all of us and  had the same human flaws. I  met Douglas Bader about a year before he died, and my personal impression of him was that he wasn't a particularly nice person, I certainly would not have chosen him as a friend, Gibson  I think was cut in the same mold.  I have  heard many accounts that he was "Difficult" and was not liked by many aircrew, and  I understand that the groundcrews didn't think much of him either. I once saw a newspaper report that stated there were cheers heard in the mess at base when he failed to return. I sincerly hope this was just tabloid sensationalism, nobody would deserve that.  

However This does not detract in any way  from their achievements.  They were both men of their time,  and the right people for the job at that time,  and they excelled at what they did, but we should not view them through "Boys own" stories rose tinted superhero spectacles! 

 

Selwyn

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On 8/14/2018 at 10:45 PM, Procopius said:

Would you mind elaborating further, by PM, perhaps, Tony? There seems an obvious candidate in the last thirty-six years, but I'd hate to be guessing wrong.

I think that you know who I mean,..... but I don`t want to elaborate for obvious reasons,

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To add to Tony's offshoot of this thread a version I heard was that it was entirely possible they were hit by friendly fire but almost definitely not deliberately.

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