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spaddad

HMS Manchester

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Hi,

I'm trying to build a collection of warships built in my hometown, Hebburn, & was wondering if a kit, or kits, exist of the cruiser HMS Manchester & this seemed a good place to ask, thanks in advance,

spad.

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Not as far as I know, but White Ensign did a resin 1/700 HMS Sheffield which was of the same class.  I don't know offhand what the detail differences were, but I could find out if no--one else volunteers them first.

 

The c!osest in 1/600 is the Belfast, but this requires fairly major surgery to shorten (and strictly to narrow) the hull, plus removal of the bulges and changes to the bridge superstructure.  I'm slowly working my way through a similar conversion for HMS Newcastle, using an Airfix HMS Tiger hull, and I recommend the resin kit as a better way of doing it!

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There is a Revell kit in 1:700, #05012. One on ebay at present in France at ~£33 quid at present (inc postage) so pretty pricey, no bids yet. eBay item number: 183354315533

 

ps And a Pit Road kit - Sold Out - but details here https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10019205

 

s-l500.jpg

Edited by clipper

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I think the OP is after the previous HMS Manchester of WW2 vinatge.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)

 

Personally very interested to know there was a type 42 kit from one of the big boys though. £33 squid is pretty pricey for an old stretch 42 but ooh I'm tempted.🤤

 

 

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1 hour ago, clipper said:

There is a Revell kit in 1:700, #05012. One on ebay at present in France at ~£33 quid at present (inc postage) so pretty pricey, no bids yet. eBay item number: 183354315533

 

ps And a Pit Road kit - Sold Out - but details here https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10019205

 

s-l500.jpg

thanks clipper but slow & dirty's right, I'm after the ww2 version.

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10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Not as far as I know, but White Ensign did a resin 1/700 HMS Sheffield which was of the same class.  I don't know offhand what the detail differences were, but I could find out if no--one else volunteers them first.

 

The c!osest in 1/600 is the Belfast, but this requires fairly major surgery to shorten (and strictly to narrow) the hull, plus removal of the bulges and changes to the bridge superstructure.  I'm slowly working my way through a similar conversion for HMS Newcastle, using an Airfix HMS Tiger hull, and I recommend the resin kit as a better way of doing it!

Thanks Graham,

dubious skill levels probably preclude any smegging about with the Belfast but I may take you up on your offer of further research on the Sheffield/Manchester differences, once again thanks,

spad

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14 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm slowly working my way through a similar conversion for HMS Newcastle, using an Airfix HMS Tiger hull, and I recommend the resin kit as a better way of doing it!

Wouldn't that involve replacing Tiger's transom stern?  Tiger excellent hull for the Colony class though.  

 

Thinking about it, starting with a TIger hull might still  be less painful than removing the torpedo bulges from the Belfast hull - which is where my Manchester conversion stalled in 1978: you end up replacing about 60% of the hull sides.

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You add Belfast's stern to the Tiger hull.  It doesn't fit terribly well but beats carving huge lumps out of the Belfast sides. Manchester is a second batch Town, so has the round front bridge as on Belfast, making that it easier.  So the Sheffield resin would need some alteration anyway.

 

Flyhawk are doing a number of British cruisers, so you might be better waiting for them to do a Town.  Be warned that Flyhawk kits have humungous numbers of tiny parts, but then so do White Ensign resins.

 

You still have the matter of which camouflage scheme.   I presume she carried four, but can only confirm the final scheme of dark Home Fleet Grey overall.  Rather boringly monotonous.  I assume you would prefer the as-built scheme which allows wooden decks to lighten things up, but whether this was the lighter or darker grey I know not.

 

Edit.  The last scheme is described as Mountbatten Pink in Whitley.  That would be different.  It's sort of lavender.

Edited by Graham Boak

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It might help if you can get the book "Town Class cruisers" in the Ensign series. Scroll down for a section on HMS Manchester. Second-hand hard copies can be obtained at decent prices if you Google for them. 

 

Mike

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

You still have the matter of which camouflage scheme.   I presume she carried four, but can only confirm the final scheme of dark Home Fleet Grey overall.  Rather boringly monotonous.  I assume you would prefer the as-built scheme which allows wooden decks to lighten things up, but whether this was the lighter or darker grey I know not.

McCart's Town Class Cruisers has two photos of Manchester as first commissioned, looking very tiddly in the white-with-buff-funnels East Indies livery.  Think it's a reasonable assumption that the decks would have been holystoned to within an inch of their lives.

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Interesting if a bit surprising.  As-built saves a lot of worrying over light AA and radar fits.  I wasn't aware of the McCart, does it have anything useful on Newcastle?   I have a couple of his carrier books but gave up on them as being of next to no use for modeling.

 

Edit.  Similar if not the same picture in Whitley Cruisers of WW2 - I must have turned over two pages earlier.  The reference to Mountbatten Pink in 1942 was actually in Raven&Roberts British Cruisers of WW2.  Manchester is said to have been in the Scapa Flow scheme in 1940 but as there's no evidence of its appearance  I'd ignore that.  I've no evidence of her camouflage in 1941, but she'd have added guns and radar by then.  The White Ensign kit is for Sheffield in 1941, so I suspect additional guns and radar would be provided in this kit, but in a quick look I was unable to find an example for sale.  Ah well, back to my Belfast conversion then...

Edited by Graham Boak

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3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

  I wasn't aware of the McCart, does it have anything useful on Newcastle?   

Over and above Whitley and Ensign 5: Town Class Cruisers, one clear photo (port bow quarter) in disruptive camouflage taken at Brooklyn naval yard, 21 Nov 42 and one (port side) of her at Colombo during service with the Eastern Fleet (Admiralty standard camouflage): too murky to be of much use for modelling purposes.

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Echo the comments that Graham makes above about converting the Airfix BELFAST to any of the earlier towns, but in fairness once the torpedo bulges are cut away, it is fairly straightforward if fairly extensive.  My GLASGOW is here:

Build thread is on ATF (as I couldn't get BM to work in those days): https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/2016-airfix-ww-2-royal-navy-gb-wookie-s-hms-glasgo-t48362.html#p725396

 

I would also endorse the comment made that it might be easier to go for the as built state.  The research I did for GLASGOW showed that the references contradict each other.  So for example McCart includes a photo of GLASGOW supposedly taken in early 1940 during the Norwegian campaign which appears to show that the 2 fwd HACS are fitted with the Type 285 radar, but according to Norman Friedman's excellent reference on British cruisers, GLASGOW wasn't fitted with 285 until much later on.

 

I too have a fondness for Hebburn built ships - my grandfather was a shipyard worker there all his working life bar the 4 years he spent in the Army during WW1.  A great regret that I have is that I remember staying at his house when I was a child and being fascinated by the series of books he had that had been published by Palmers and Hawthorn Leslies showing the ships they had built in the 30s and 40s.  After he passed away, apparently these books were nowhere to be found.  I do recall him saying that he was especially proud of having worked on KELLY (twice, both in build and when she came back in for repairs after being torpedoed off Norway).

 

MANCHESTER has a fascinating history and was the subject of a study that I was involved with some years back on the subject of command in the Royal Navy.  The question was "Did Captain Drew take the right decision when he ordered MANCHESTER to be scuttled after being crippled during Operation Pedestal?"  The study, which was conducted with a series of serving RN commanding officers and led by the prestigious naval historian Professor Eric Grove concluded that he had no other choice, despite the Admiralty at the time deciding to Court Martial him and finding him guilty of negligence.

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Thanks Chewie,

just read your wip on  the Airfix forum, should prove very helpful should I ever get to the actual construction phase of this project. Just as interesting was finding  out your grandfather was a Hebburn lad. I am currently working on the old Matchbox kit of the Kelly & have to admit it's pushing the old eyeballs to their limit! The Kelly holds a special place in the hearts of Hebburn people (at least of those over a certain age), there is a pub named after her which featured in the BBC comedy "Hebburn" although under a different name & a plot in Hebburn cemetery where the remains of the crew killed in the Norwegian torpedoing are buried. When I was serving my apprenticeship one of the older fitters told me how he worked on the Kelly when she was building & how he worked on her after she was torpedoed & came back to the Tyne. He said they had to wash the blood & gore off the walls etc. before they could start the repairs, makes you wonder how the young men of today would cope. Once again thanks for your help,

cheers,

spad

 

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On 8/11/2018 at 9:55 AM, Graham Boak said:

You still have the matter of which camouflage scheme.   I presume she carried four, but can only confirm the final scheme of dark Home Fleet Grey overall.  Rather boringly monotonous.  I assume you would prefer the as-built scheme which allows wooden decks to lighten things up, but whether this was the lighter or darker grey I know not.

 

Edit.  The last scheme is described as Mountbatten Pink in Whitley.  That would be different.  It's sort of lavender.

 

She appears to be in FSG in 1941

mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs

 

She was in overall HFG in 1942

mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs

 

 

 

 

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Jamie,

I'm not trying to be a smart ar*e, or be disrespectful. I'm absolutely positive you know more about WW2 RN paints than anyone else I've ever read a post of. But I'd have put the darker colour in the '42 pic down to backlighting from the sun. (Albeit I've only seen the above snap posted here).

Tom

 

 

Edited by Modelholic
bad spelling

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Hi Tom, there's a better photo I probably should have linked instead on the IWM's site taken in decent light from the starboard bow. Come to think of it, I was intending to link that too but I got distracted by a "if you want this Prince of Wales drawing finished you need to tell me what this thing is supposed to look like" from my wife as I was mid-typing.

 

I've got another image file on my clipboard (using a smart phone so far more clumsy than a real computer) but if you just look through the Second World War photos on the IWM photo library with "HMS Manchester" as the search term you'll find it. It looked to be taken from an aircraft at low altitude and it was very clear. :)

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I've seen three clear photos of Manchester in 1942.  They appear to be consistent with Home Fleet Grey.  (I thought I'd seen this in print, but haven't tracked that down yet.)  However, telling colour from b&w photos is notoriously uncertain.  For me, the problem remains that Alan Raven states that Manchester was the only "Town" painted Mountbatten Pink.  This is written above two pictures of Manchester in 1942, so it is possible that this is actually not referring to the scheme in the two photos but an earlier scheme.  1941?  Or possibly it was something he believed in 1980, but now...?

 

Just to be awkward, Ian Fleming (Airfix Magazine February 1977) states that Manchester was in light grey at the time of her loss.  We know that she had visited a dockyard immediately previously, to have some Army Bofors fitted as extra AA, although not all the positions of these guns are known.  OK, one is.  To me, this implies Gibraltar.  If (a big if) she was repainted then, light grey seems likelier than Mountbatten Pink.

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It is fraught with uncertainty.

 

Mountbatten pink was nominally a 20% LRV paint the same as M.S.3. and the same as "Claude Muncaster's" unnamed equal parts 507A + 507C emergency mix. It's also 5% lighter than B.5 and 7~10% lighter than Home Fleet Grey.

 

Were it overall Mountbatten pink I'd initially expect to see quite a light appearance, or at least as light if not lighter than the appearance of HFG painted ships that Raven believed were painted in a 20% LRV "507B" made from equal parts 507A + 507C (which for completeness for anyone reading not familiar with recent research, it wasn't).

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Blimey I've started something here, but it's very interesting. Although I've been in the merchant navy ships aren't my usual fare, hence my request regarding the Manchester, but I always find it absorbing to listen to people who "know stuff about stuff" so thanks for all of this. If Flyhawk do bring out kits what scale are they likely to be? As a result of all this info I'm now contemplating a model of the Newcastle as well.

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Newcastle was built in Jarrow, and there is (or was) a builder's model of it on display in a case in Barrow Hospital.  The key difference, as I understand it, between Newcastle and Manchester "as built" was that Newcastle had a flat-fronted bridge and Manchester a round one.  Belfast has a round-fronted bridge, making life that little bit easier for the converter.

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:51 PM, spaddad said:

Hi,

I'm trying to build a collection of warships built in my hometown, Hebburn, & was wondering if a kit, or kits, exist of the cruiser HMS Manchester & this seemed a good place to ask, thanks in advance,

spad.

 

There's loads of Royal Navy ships in the pipeline in 1/700 and the Flyhawk kits are best by a long distance! My advice is to wait to see if anyone does HMS Manchester or one of her sisters. If you can't, L'Arsenal of France do a resin kit of HMS Sheffield, which is probably the closest you'd currently get to Manchester (or indeed the old WEM Sheffield if you can find one).

 

Someone mentioned the Colony class cruisers, L'Arsenal also did HMS Jamaica in 1/700 as well as Sheff.

 

If you want ships built in Hebburn - try Flyhawk's 1/700 HMS Legion - I have it and it's an amazing kit. Flyhawk also do HMS Naiad (which you could maybe convert into Cleopatra if you wanted a 2nd Dido). Flyhawk previously announced they will be doing HMS Kelly.

 

Also of note - WEM used to do HMS Sussex, Tamiya do the E class, so HMS Electra? IBG of Poland will be doing G and I class destroyers - so Greyhound, Imogen and Imperial might be possible.

 

thanks

Mike

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Just realised that the reason why I'm having so much difficulty with the forward superstructure on Newcastle is because I didn't narrow the deck of Belfast to fit the Tiger Hull, but let the hull spring out a bit.  That means that the superstructure does not reach the sides of the hull, as on the earlier ships.  I'm considering cutting out the deck and starting again on that bit, but that doesn't seem too likely without damage.  So for anyone else following this route, narrow the deck (which means sacrificing some detail) or completely rebuild the forward superstructure.  Bad language.

 

Hmm.  What's the L'Arsenal resin kit of Sheffield like?  I have their Colossus, so I suspect it is gorgeous.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Just realised that the reason why I'm having so much difficulty with the forward superstructure on Newcastle is because I didn't narrow the deck of Belfast to fit the Tiger Hull, but let the hull spring out a bit.  That means that the superstructure does not reach the sides of the hull, as on the earlier ships.  I'm considering cutting out the deck and starting again on that bit, but that doesn't seem too likely without damage.  So for anyone else following this route, narrow the deck (which means sacrificing some detail) or completely rebuild the forward superstructure.  Bad language.

 

Hmm.  What's the L'Arsenal resin kit of Sheffield like?  I have their Colossus, so I suspect it is gorgeous.

I'm slightly confused what you're trying to do.  From a quick check of Wikipedia (saves digging the better reference books out but I do concede it may be less accurate), BELFAST's beam was 63ft 4 in, while TIGER is 64ft, so in effect TIGER is broader in the beam in 1/600 scale by 0.3mm.  Are you saying that BELFAST's fwd deck is wider than the TIGER hull?

 

Of course the earlier Towns were slightly narrower in the beam at 61ft 8 in but even that's only 1mm.  That of course assumes that the Airfix hulls are accurate (should be 32.5 for TIGER and 32.2 for BELFAST)

 

But the key thing is that the Batch 1 and 2 Towns had a very different fwd superstructure to both the Batch 3s (BELFAST) and TIGER in that the earlier Town superstructure came right out to the edge of the hull, the later ships both had a waist.  I think you are looking at rebuilding the fwd superstructure I'm afraid, but seriously it's not too difficult.  Most challenging part I found was fairing the extensions into the curved fwd screen to make them look seamless.

Edited by Chewbacca

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