US intermediate blue...

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

This model got Photobucketed but it has the four colours on it:

 

[Andre B]

57 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Even that isn't completely true, they using a matt & semi gloss version of the same colour, Hu 104, the problem with that as I understand it was that semi gloss sea blue was a bluer blue than non specular sea blue which was more a blackish greyish dark blue. I'm doing this on my phone & hoping I'm not getting semi gloss sea blue mixed up with gloss sea blue, hopefully someone will be along to confirm or confound me.

Steve.

 

True Steve,

 

Airfix knew and tried probably to do the best of things with those Humbrol paints they had available.

 

The Airfix 1/72 Gumman Avenger came 1966. I don't knew when they updated their painting instruktions but 1996 (after the FSM article?) the four colour scheme for the Avenger was showed (as for the mentioned Kingfisher).

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-72-grumman-tbm-3-avenger-297-t45817.html

 

In the same time Academy still was showing the wrong "three colour scheme" in their instruction...

 

 

The Humbrol 181 is mentioned here in this thread. But I am not aware if Airfix has mentioned this paint in any painting instructions for their USN kits. Maybe someone knew?

 

Cheers / André

Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B

[Andre B]

5 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

This model got Photobucketed but it has the four colours on it:

 

I like those colours.

A good looking aircraft, Jamie!

 

Cheers / André

[stevehnz]

Looking at Jamie's Hellcat, maybe NS & SG Sea Blues are the same colour other than variations on their finishes, I think I'm confusing SG Sea Blue with Gloss Sea Blue which is a bluer blue & for which Hu 181 was a fairly good match.

Steve.

[Andre B]

27 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Looking at Jamie's Hellcat, maybe NS & SG Sea Blues are the same colour other than variations on their finishes, I think I'm confusing SG Sea Blue with Gloss Sea Blue which is a bluer blue & for which Hu 181 was a fairly good match.

Steve.

 

Mmm...

I agree with you Steve. All those shades of blue is confusing. I read this at Large Scale Plane's forum...

 

"Note: Glossy Sea Blue FS 15042 is the same as Non Specular (FS 35042)/Semi Gloss Sea Blue (FS 25042), the difference is

the prefix 15 denoting Gloss, 25 semi gloss, 35 matt/non specular."

 

But as mentioned earlier by Troy Smith and others, FS-shades isn't the same shades as ANA-shades.

 

 

Just wonder then what happend to Hu 181 as Airfix continued with Hu 104 for the mentioned shades?

 

Cheers / André

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B

[Andre B]

Looking at pictures...

https://rwphotos.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Qk6JC3jnljQ

 

Nog only modell builders seems to have problems finding the accurate shades of blue...

 

/André

[stevehnz]

30 minutes ago, Andre B said:

Looking at pictures...

https://rwphotos.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Qk6JC3jnljQ

 

Nog only modell builders seems to have problems finding the accurate shades of blue...

 

/André

Hmmmm.... Hu 115 & 47 I reckon.

Steve.

[Vlad]

@Andre B Ok I understand now, you learn something new every day!

 

I forgot about Humbrol 112, as I switched to acrylics and it isn't available in those. That might help you. There's also Humbrol 77 although in my experience that comes out a bit green-ish.

 

I've done the rounds testing these colours for a slightly different reason: the various dazzle camouflages on the ships those planes flew from!

 

You might find Humbrol 96 useful if you haven't tested already. That ended up being my choice for 5-S Sea Blue on US 1942 timeframe ships. I've used it alongside 144 as 5-O Ocean Grey on a couple of ships and there is enough contrast there. 5-S was known to fade very fast, so it might work for you as a faded non-specular sea blue.

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies I can't tell there are two upper surface colours on that Hellcat, not from that picture at least  if this was my model I would definitely be in the "don't bother to match specular and non-specular sea blues separately" camp.

[Andre B]

13 minutes ago, Vlad said:

@Andre B Ok I understand now, you learn something new every day!

 

I forgot about Humbrol 112, as I switched to acrylics and it isn't available in those. That might help you. There's also Humbrol 77 although in my experience that comes out a bit green-ish.

 

I've done the rounds testing these colours for a slightly different reason: the various dazzle camouflages on the ships those planes flew from!

 

You might find Humbrol 96 useful if you haven't tested already. That ended up being my choice for 5-S Sea Blue on US 1942 timeframe ships. I've used it alongside 144 as 5-O Ocean Grey on a couple of ships and there is enough contrast there. 5-S was known to fade very fast, so it might work for you as a faded non-specular sea blue.

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies I can't tell there are two upper surface colours on that Hellcat, not from that picture at least  if this was my model I would definitely be in the "don't bother to match specular and non-specular sea blues separately" camp.

To be hounest I tested Hu 112 for an P-47M Thunderbolt build. As I tried it togheter with Hu 144 I fell into the USN swamp. Yes, I do have som Avengers and Hellcat's as well...

 

Usually I prefer Tamiya AS paints. But in this case it seems that the Tamiya Intermediate Blue is too light compared to Hu 144. Almost like the picture mentioned in post #31...

 

Cheers / André

 

Black and White?

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6095451

Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I usually ignore FS recommendations as FS595 is an absolutely tiny colour palette once duplications of finish are removed. In addition, it's dangerous to trust aging males in particular who have high occurances of colour perception defects particularly when FS "matches" are unqualified. The "nearest FS match" and an actual match are frequently a long way from each other for people with non-defective colour perception. FS595 only helps spread misinformation in the modelling world.

 

For WW2 USN it's only the ANA numbers that matter.

 

The tricolor scheme used the following four colours:

ANA601 Insignia White

ANA606 Semi Gloss Sea Blue on wings and tailplanes

ANA607 Non Specular Sea Blue on the fuselage top and sometimes on leading edges of flying surfaces

ANA608 Intermediate Blue

 

The overall blue scheme used ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue. ANA623 changed colour at some point post-war before the US Goverment decided to get their Federal Standard collection going. FS15042 replaced their REVISED ANA623.

 

ANA606, 607, wartime 623 and FS15042 are all different COLOURS as well as finishes, and when I saw them all together they were sufficiently different to warrant four different products.

 

The ANA606 and 607 don't really look alike to me - I can tell them apart from unlabelled swatches. They are very close in tone such that in greyscale they look the same, but the colour saturation is very distinct. I've seen some Avenger photographs where the difference is pretty obvious too.

 

[Andre B]

20 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I usually ignore FS recommendations as FS595 is an absolutely tiny colour palette once duplications of finish are removed. In addition, it's dangerous to trust aging males in particular who have high occurances of colour perception defects particularly when FS "matches" are unqualified. The "nearest FS match" and an actual match are frequently a long way from each other for people with non-defective colour perception. FS595 only helps spread misinformation in the modelling world.

 

For WW2 USN it's only the ANA numbers that matter.

 

The tricolor scheme used the following four colours:

ANA601 Insignia White

ANA606 Semi Gloss Sea Blue on wings and tailplanes

ANA607 Non Specular Sea Blue on the fuselage top and sometimes on leading edges of flying surfaces

ANA608 Intermediate Blue

 

The overall blue scheme used ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue. ANA623 changed colour at some point post-war before the US Goverment decided to get their Federal Standard collection going. FS15042 replaced their REVISED ANA623.

 

ANA606, 607, wartime 623 and FS15042 are all different COLOURS as well as finishes, and when I saw them all together they were sufficiently different to warrant four different products.

 

The ANA606 and 607 don't really look alike to me - I can tell them apart from unlabelled swatches. They are very close in tone such that in greyscale they look the same, but the colour saturation is very distinct. I've seen some Avenger photographs where the difference is pretty obvious too.

 

Thanks Jamie...

 

So in the bitter end concerning Humbrol and Tamiya there are no accurate blue ANA-colours concerning the "four colour scheme" of -43/44 or the later ANA623 Gloss Sea Blue.

 

Hu 144 Intermediate Blue is the only Humbrol paint close (to ANA608). 

 

When it comes to Tamiya AS-8 Navy Blue and AS-19 Intermediate Blue who knews?

 

Cheers /André

Edited August 16, 2018 by Andre B

[Andre B]

Mmm...

What blue was used for roundels on ex USN aircraft's (Avenger's, Corsair's and Dauntless) painted in ANA-paints (ANA606, 607 and 623) in Brittish, Australian and NZ service?

 

No. 30 Sqn. RNZ...

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Grumman_TBF_Avenger

 

US Insignia Blue, RN Roundel Blue or...?

 

/André

Edited August 16, 2018 by Andre B

[LDSModeller]

2 hours ago, Andre B said:

Mmm...

What blue was used for roundels on ex USN aircraft's (Avenger's, Corsair's and Dauntless) painted in ANA-paints (ANA606, 607 and 623) in Brittish, Australian and NZ service?

 

No. 30 Sqn. RNZ...

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Grumman_TBF_Avenger

 

US Insignia Blue, RN Roundel Blue or...?

 

/André

Note Some RNZAF aircraft flew in US markings for a period of time such as P40E-1's taken over by

RNZAF 15 Squadron from USAAF 68thFG in Tonga October 1942, the US Star was eventually over painted

with RNZAF Pacific Roundel Blue as in this RNZAF Photo link below

RNZAF P40E-1

 

The RNZAF received Douglas SBD Dauntless 3/4/5's, The 3's stayed in New Zealand along with some 4's

they too carried US Stars for a while until a Roundel repaint

Remainder 4's went to the Islands and trained RNZAF crews, again Roundels painted in RNZAF Pacific Roundel Blue

SDB 5's were taken from USMC stock in the Islands, and had the US Star (bars stayed as is) over painted in RNZAF
Pacific Roundel Blue - the SBD 5's were the only RNZAF aircraft in the Pacific to wear the RNZAF Roundel in 4 positions (usually 6)

 

The RNZAF received some 460 odd F4U-1 (A/D's) and FG-1D's - These had the US Star (bar remained the same) over Painted in

RNZAF Roundel Blue.

Corsair upon receipt by RNZAF SU (Servicing Unit)

 

After Application of RNZAF Roundel

RNZAF Corsairs with RNZAF Pacific Roundel

 

The RNZAF Pacific Roundel was generally painted in a New Zealand (or Australian) BALM (British Australian Lead Manufacturers)

paint (dark Blue) which had a tendency to weather quite badly leaving aircraft on occasion looking like this

 

Contrary to popular Net Myth, RNZAF Roundels did not fade to light blue (of any description)

 

The RNZAF received two sets of "Avengers" Lend Lease

 

TBF-1 in typical USN 4 Tone  Colours these stayed in New Zealand for training

 

TBF-1C in Typical USN 4 Tone Colours, these flew with both 30/31 SU/Squadrons in

the forward operational areas

 

Grumman thoughtfully painted "RAF" style roundels in US Insignia paint colours.

 

The wing Roundels were over painted in RNZAF Roundel Blue (a Dark Blue), the fuselage Roundel

was left in (outer to inner) Insignia Yellow/Blue/White, and Insignia Red over painted in RNZAF Roundel Blue (dark Blue)

 

Hope that answers your query re RNZAF aircraft?

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Andre B]

Thanks Alan,

 

Great interesting historical information!

 

Only question left is what dark blue shade RNZAF used for the roundels compared to mentioned ANA-colours, Humbrol and Tamiya paints...

 

Cheers / André

Edited August 16, 2018 by Andre B

[LDSModeller]

1 minute ago, Andre B said:

Thanks Alan,

 

Only question left is what dark blue shade RNZAF used for the roundels compared to mentioned ANA-colours, Humbrol and Tamiya paints...

 

Cheers / André

Hi Andre,

 

Don't get hung up on ANA Paint colous/ numbers for RNZAF Pacific Roundel colours - no correlation.

 

RNZAF Pacific Roundel were BALM Colours The closest Humbrol paint is Hu 25 though a little darker,

 

Official BALM code is B.A.L.M. Ref: S13-044, Description: Matt Blue Iden Colour

 

From RNZAF Museum on Semi Specular Sea Blue and Int Blue

 

RNZAF Pacific Roundel colours

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[Andre B]

11 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Andre,

 

Don't get hung up on ANA Paint colous/ numbers for RNZAF Pacific Roundel colours - no correlation.

 

RNZAF Pacific Roundel were BALM Colours The closest Humbrol paint is Hu 25 though a little darker,

 

Official BALM code is B.A.L.M. Ref: S13-044, Description: Matt Blue Iden Colour

 

From RNZAF Museum on Semi Specular Sea Blue and Int Blue

 

RNZAF Pacific Roundel colours

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

 

Concerning ANA paint/colours. If I knew what paint was used for roundels I maybe also can find an accurate paint for the rest of the aircraft. 

 

But it gets really interesting when for example Hu 104 is given for both non-specular sea blue, semi-gloss sea blue and roundels... 😕

 

So information as Hu 25 for RNZAF roundels is of great value.

 

Cheers / André

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

If Lars can get them to you our Danish dealer has the USN colours in stock:

http://airbrush-shop.dk/index.php?id_product=2165&controller=product

[Andre B]

Intermediate Blue the Tamiya rattle can way (AS-19)...

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10734

 

Cheers / André

[JWM]

Hi,

Recently I am doing series of US Navy machines and my personal choice is:

Nonspecular Blue  - Humbrol 77 (104 is too just deep blue for me, the 77 has this not obvious hue)

Intermediate blue - I mix from Humbrol 144 and 89 with some white added, result is like here:

 

Cheers

J-W

 

[Pete M.]

ANA colour swatches from the Monogram book. Not sure how they will come out on-screen, so caveat emptor as they say.

 

 

 

Hope these help. Unfortunately the scans do not show the gloss or semi-gloss finish on these real paint chips.

Also note the known variations in the earlier Blue/Gray (sic) upper side colours.

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

[Andre B]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:09 AM, Pete M. said:

ANA colour swatches from the Monogram book. Not sure how they will come out on-screen, so caveat emptor as they say.

 

 

 

Hope these help. Unfortunately the scans do not show the gloss or semi-gloss finish on these real paint chips.

Also note the known variations in the earlier Blue/Gray (sic) upper side colours.

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

Thanks,

 

But I think someone has to compare the real paintchips with paintchips from Humbrol, Tamiya AS paints etc. Otherwise it's really hard to say if it's accurate or not. 

 

I am afraid that scans in an computer doesn't Day anything. Wait one or another week and Jamie make comparisons with real paintchips...

 

Cheers / André

Edited April 11, 2019 by Andre B

[Pete M.]

Hi Andre. I posted those so the difference in tone between semi-gloss Sea Blue and N.s.Sea Blue could be noted. 🤔

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 hours ago, Andre B said:

Wait one or another week and Jamie make comparisons with real paintchips...

 

Cheers / André

Hi André, I've been watching the mail and we're still waiting for them to arrive

[Andre B]

8 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Hi André, I've been watching the mail and we're still waiting for them to arrive

Hi Jamie,

 

They are on the way. In Sweden we have what we call the "slow mail" (Post Nord). When the mail leaves Sweden it goes faster. So any day now you will have the paint chips in your hand...

 

Cheers / André

Edited April 11, 2019 by Andre B