Andre B Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Is there an good intermediate blue available? It seems that Hu 144 is rather grey and dark. Or is Hu 144 an accurate shade for intermediate blue for Hellcat's, Avenger's and other US Navy aircraft's? Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 56 minutes ago, Andre B said: Is there an good intermediate blue available? It seems that Hu 144 is rather grey and dark. Or is Hu 144 an accurate shade for intermediate blue for Hellcat's, Avenger's and other US Navy aircraft's? Cheers / André acrylic or enamel? if you are an enamel user and are doing USN types, you probably want to tracks down some colourcoats these are all the USN pacific colors https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/united-states-army-air-corps-united-states-air-force/products/us-navy-wwii-pacific-colourset?variant=25890456968 seems the nearest supplier is http://airbrush-shop.dk/index.php @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies maybe working of a supplier in Sweden. Acrylic would probably be best with Gunze or Mr.color, the only really well researched USN colors are the Sovereign Hobbies AFAIK. HTH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 Thanks Troy, It seems that the only available "intermediate blues" in Sweden are the old Humbrol 144 and newer Tamiya AS 19. Strange that these colours aren't mentioned when it comes to intermediate blue today... Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasermonkey Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I'll check my tin of Humbrol 144 against my FS 595a book tomorrow, but I seem to remember that it was a pretty good match for 35164 (which I'm sure is the same Intermediate Blue from WW2), as I've just used it on a "Grape" scheme on an F-5E. Cheers, Mark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsr Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 According to here http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_humbrol.htm 144 is a match for 35164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Like Andre, I've long thought Hu144 was too dark & grey but, having recently been delivered some ColorCoats Intermediate Blue, & painted out a sample to compare against my similarly painted out Hu 144, I can say that to my eyes anyway, in similar lighting, there is little if any difference I can see. Steve. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, hsr said: According to here http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_humbrol.htm 144 is a match for 35164 I am from Sweden and that chart hasn't been updated for years. Even Humbrol paints have the same shade today as for twenty years ago. As an example I have three cans of Hu 87 with three shades of bluegray. Only one of them can be usefull for the Swedish Air Force... Cheers / André Edited August 10, 2018 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Starmer Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I just checked H144 against the Intermediate Blue in the Monogram USN and USNC colours book. H144 is too dark, my 2016 sample is darker than the original of years ago. However it is closer than any other colour. I suggest about + 10-15% white would be OK on a model. I haven't tried that, simply eyeballed it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasermonkey Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Ok, I just compared a paint swatch of Humbrol 144 against the swatch of 35164 in my FS595a book. The Humbrol paint is very slightly paler and slightly less saturated (ie greyer) than the chip in the '595a book. Well within acceptable norms. There really is very little in it. As I understand it, 35164 is the same Intermediate Blue as the WW2 colour. Cheers, Mark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 What about Xtracrylix Intermediate Blue? I don't know how hard it is to source in Sweden or how accurate overall, but it is definitely brighter and more solidly blue than H 144. Personally I think it's a great looking colour... although I've never used it for its actual purpose on e.g. a Corsair or whatnot (I use it as a stand-in for various blues on WWII ship camouflages). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFlyHalf Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Why worry about exact shades of blue, green or whatever? Paints fade, particularly on a real aeroplane, bits quickly look different as sunlight affects them. And modellers attempts at weathering often messes up basic colours, and in different lighting and on different computer monitors the result looks different anyway. There ain't no such thing as perfection in modelling. Try as we may. If YOU are happy with the result, that's what counts. And yes, I too care about getting the result to look right, but accept it's not the real thing and is just my representation of it.... Just have fun and enjoy! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 12, 2018 Author Share Posted August 12, 2018 On 8/10/2018 at 10:39 PM, FatFlyHalf said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 12, 2018 Author Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) Some people suggest Hu 230 PRU Blue instead. It's lighter and more lightblue than Hu 144. But is the common experience that Hu 144 is an good shade for Intermediate Blue I use it. So what paint then for Non Specular Sea Blue? For sure there is a reason why I avoid building four shade US Navy aircraft's from the middle of WW2... Cheers / André Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Andre B said: So what paint then for Non Specular Sea Blue? Looks like a job for Humbrol 104 to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Vlad said: Looks like a job for Humbrol 104 to me! Mmm... That's the thing with Non Specular Sea Blue. So few take notice about this colour and goes for an three shade US Navy aircraft instead of four. But I will make a test with Hu 104 and Hu 144... ...and hopes it doesn't interfeer with USN semi gloss sea blue and insignia blue, the other dark blues on an US Navy aircraft during those years. It is not strange why the US Navy later on shifted to overall USN Gloss Sea Blue... Sheers / André Edited August 13, 2018 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Wait, FOUR colour schemes? That's news to me... What are you using for gloss sea blue? I would have thought Hu 104 with a gloss coat but I didn't realise you need non-specular and gloss sea blues on the same aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Specular and Non-Specular Sea Blue are not quite the same hue. How many people would notice on a model, even if they knew, might be another matter. Edited August 13, 2018 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Vlad said: Wait, FOUR colour schemes? That's news to me... What are you using for gloss sea blue? I would have thought Hu 104 with a gloss coat but I didn't realise you need non-specular and gloss sea blues on the same aircraft. Yes, four colours Scheme, as Troy Smith pointed out earlier. For the 1943 "Tricolor" schemes four colours was present... Semi-gloss Sea Blue used on upper surfaces of wings and horizontal tail (Tamiya AS-8 US Navy Blue ?). Non-specular Blue used on top of fuselage and leading edges of wings. Intermediate Blue used on fuselage sides and vertical tail (Hu 144 or Tamiya AS-19). Insignia White used on undersides (Tamiya AS-20). And last another dark blue, the Insignia Blue for the stars and bars. So lots of different dark blues there and yet no another dark blue mentioned - the USN Gloss Sea Blue (Tamiya AS-8 ?) from mid -44... Cheers / André Edited August 13, 2018 by Andre B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e8n2 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Non-specular Sea Blue ╚ 35042 ( note that ╚ is the closest I could find to about equals) Gloss Sea Blue ╚ 15042 Insignia Blue ╚ 15044 Non-specular sea blue is a very different color from gloss see blue. Check out the photo of the Marine AU-1 in another post and you can see the difference. The quoted FS numbers are approximate matches to the actual war time colors. That is why the ╚ is there. It is supposed to be a wavy equal sign, but it didn't show up like character map in windows said it would. Later, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 I noticed Hu 112 in My paintbox. Don't knew what it is good for. But how far is it from non-specular sea blue? Looking att pictures it doesn't look that wrong... Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 5 hours ago, e8n2 said: Non-specular Sea Blue ╚ 35042 ( note that ╚ is the closest I could find to about equals) Gloss Sea Blue ╚ 15042 Insignia Blue ╚ 15044 Non-specular sea blue is a very different color from gloss see blue. Check out the photo of the Marine AU-1 in another post and you can see the difference. The quoted FS numbers are approximate matches to the actual war time colors. That is why the ╚ is there. It is supposed to be a wavy equal sign, but it didn't show up like character map in windows said it would. Later, Dave HI Dave some colors have FS595 matches, some don't. I appreciate you say mean approximately. One important piece of information regarding Gloss Sea Blue, the FS15042, is the post 1947 color, the wartime one was ANA623 this from @Dana Bell Quote Most are working from the FS595 chips, which never accurately matched all three versions of the wartime colors. The other problem is that the formula for ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue changed in 1947/48. The original color faded to quickly and was replaced with more resilient pigments. When the US Navy gave modelers the old stocks of ANA paint chips in the 1960s/70s, some of us got the 1944 card-stock chip of ANA 623, while others got the 1948 metal replacement chips. I can well remember the arguments back then, arguments that arose because we were working from different standards! from this thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235014486-usn-hellcat-colours-an-unexpected-query/ and Quote Glossy Sea Blue faded terribly and was completely reformulated in 1947 - the GSB applied to a Panther might seem totally wrong on a wartime Avenger or Hellcat - and you won't normally know which chip a model paint manufacturer used when formulating his paints. (Some years ago, one model paint manufacturer was mercilessly attacked for his poor matching of GSB - but the paint was a near-exact match for the original 1943 paint chip; the reviewer was using a 1950s chip for comparison.) from this https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235014486-usn-hellcat-colours-an-unexpected-query/ AFAIK the only model paints matched to the actual standards are the Colourcoats ones linked above. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) Looking att pictures... What happend here? http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/World/Middle-East/Israel/Hatzerim_AFB/Israel/TBM-3E_Avenger_N7850C_69355.htm Did someone at the museum do a messy paintjob? If you don't see what I meen take a second look at the folded wing... Concerning the demarkationline between non-specular sea blue and semi-gloss sea blue on Avenger's is that what can be seen on this folded wing in the first picture? http://motataircraft.blogspot.com/2007/12/grumman-tbf-1c-avenger.html?m=1 Looking at an "old Airfix instruction" (from 1996) for an Vought Kingfisher Airfix for sure was avare of the USN for colour sheme from -43 to -44. The mentioned aircraft is said to be from USS North Carolina in April 1944. And the instruktions calls for... Semi-gloss Sea Blue - 104/135 Non-specular Sea Blue - 104 Intermediate Blue - 144 Insignia White - 34 Humbrol 135 is an satin varnish. Cheers / André Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e8n2 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 34 minutes ago, Andre B said: Looking att pictures... What happend here? http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/World/Middle-East/Israel/Hatzerim_AFB/Israel/TBM-3E_Avenger_N7850C_69355.htm Did someone at the museum do a messy paintjob? If you don't see what I meen take a second look at the folded wing... Concerning the demarkationline between non-specular sea blue and semi-gloss sea blue on Avenger's is that what can be seen on this folded wing in the first picture? http://motataircraft.blogspot.com/2007/12/grumman-tbf-1c-avenger.html?m=1 Cheers / André For the part 1 question, somebody really messed up somewhere. I would really tend to doubt that that would have been a war time botch job, but somewhere along the line somebody did botch it up royally in putting the national insignia on upside down. As for part 2, I really am not familiar with that, but based on what they do now, I would imagine that they went no more than one third of the chord with the demarcation line. As I said, I am not really familiar with this as this is about the first time that I heard about the two blues being on the upper wing surface. Later, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, e8n2 said: For the part 1 question, somebody really messed up somewhere. I would really tend to doubt that that would have been a war time botch job, but somewhere along the line somebody did botch it up royally in putting the national insignia on upside down. As for part 2, I really am not familiar with that, but based on what they do now, I would imagine that they went no more than one third of the chord with the demarcation line. As I said, I am not really familiar with this as this is about the first time that I heard about the two blues being on the upper wing surface. Later, Dave Hello Dave, Agree with you about that the "four colour sheme" isn't an common knewledge. But first time I really read about it was in an article concerning colour and camouflage and Grumman Avenger in Fine Scale Modeller long before Internet during the -90 's something. I have that magazine packed somewhere. Just have to dig it up. But Airfix knew 1996... Cheers / André Edited August 15, 2018 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, Andre B said: But Airfix knew 1996... Even that isn't completely true, they using a matt & semi gloss version of the same colour, Hu 104, the problem with that as I understand it was that semi gloss sea blue was a bluer blue than non specular sea blue which was more a blackish greyish dark blue. I'm doing this on my phone & hoping I'm not getting semi gloss sea blue mixed up with gloss sea blue, hopefully someone will be along to confirm or confound me. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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