P-51D Mustang markings assistance

[James B]

Hi all,

 

My searching has found lots of really great examples of P-51 Mustangs, but I've yet to uncover a guide to when colours were applied and why. I'm looking at two squadrons; 328th FS and 487th FS both 352nd FG as I have these decals:

 

 

 

Where I'm coming unstuck is things like the tail colours. When did these start being added? Were they the same colour for all planes in the squadron? The D-Day stripes were removed by September '44 from what I can tell. Did all planes in the squadron have them, and did it coincide with tail colours?  I've started on the Mustangs, and have them all in bare metal finish with blue noses, but now I'm stuck.

 

Thank you all in advance for any help you can give me here.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @James B ... The 328th had red as the squadron color. The 486th was Yellow. And the 487th was blue. The Group of course was Blue noses. I can post some photo’s later. But try this webpage. 

 

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/

 

it covers all of 8th fighter command. The one squadron it doesnt cover is the 354th which was a 9th A.F. Unit. They were the first unit to recieve mustangs and were loaned to the 8th fighter command for a time until more mustangs could be gotten into theater. 

 

Dennis

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[James B]

Thanks @Corsairfoxfouruncle. I've spent a fair amount of time on that site (it's really fantastic and clearly a labour of love by the author), but found pictures of Mustangs from the two squadrons I'm doing (including the exact serials). However, I am confused as some are shown with d-day stripes and some with out. Some are shown with red tails, and some aren't. Was there any standardisation to it all? Would the aircraft of the squadron have been repainted all together (within a few weeks)?  I'm going to do 6 planes from each of the two I have decals for, and need to work out if I do them all the same, or mix them up. I want to depict them flying at the same time, around early January 1945.

[fubar57]

Interesting bit here...https://olive-drab.com/od_history_ww2_ops_battles_1944normandy_invasionstripes.php

I believe there were orders to remove the stripes from the upper wings first and later from the rest of the aircraft as time allowed

 

 

 

George

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

The D-Day stripes were gone by the end of September on the uppers and totally by the winter from what i recall. The planes were swapped often between the squadrons. If a pilot was rotated home, wounded, or on leave they would re-assign the plane. Sometines another pilot or squadron’s pilot may have taken the plane up if his bird was down due to maintenance. So its not unlikely that you have seen some confusing photo’s.

     I believe the assigned colors for the squadrons came into being around February of 44. Before that they usually used the theater bands white on top of green black on the bottom, or black over NMF.  But it would take months for all of them to be brought up to standard. Rule # 1 in theater was keep it flying/fighting. Then as each plane came into its major maintenance overhaul/repair cycle then it would have been painted. Crews rarely had time to do painting unless the plane was down for work or the weather allowed it.  

     Personally i think mixing them up brings it to a more interesting level. It wasnt unheard of for the planes to be transferred from one group to another. There are plenty of references of that on the littlefriends site. A great example is J.D. Landers Big Beautiful Doll. He transferred from the 78th Fg. To take command of the 361st F.g. Theres a photo showing the Black and white nose but codes for the “361st Yellowjackets. So you may want to have a blue nosed plane with an odd code for another Group. I will keep looking for the exact date on the squadron colors rule. 

 

Dennis

[Boman]

Black on NMF and white on OD was the standard until spring 1944, when the 56FG started coloring the noses of their P-47's with squadron colors. This was later changed to single Group color on the nose for all units. 

Tail colors signifying each squadron in Group came around November 1944. 

 

The invasion stripes was still in use by January 1945 as can be seen on Operation Bodenplatte-related photos of the 352FG and 366FG, mostly by units located on the continent to avoid friendly fire incidents. Didn't help in all cases as Preddy was shot down despite having black invasion stripes on the belly of 44-14906 PE-P 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Boman

[Troy Smith]

21 hours ago, James B said:

Where I'm coming unstuck is things like the tail colours. When did these start being added? Were they the same colour for all planes in the squadron?

IIRc from this, there is a page showing all the tail colours and when they came in, my copy not hand at the mo.

 

@Dana Bell  is a member, so if he gets the notification, he'd be able to say.which reminded me the Ducimus guides are all up here, https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/16-NAA-P-51-F-6

and there is one of the Mustang

this may help, but have a read of the guide as well

[James B]

thank you everyone for the superb and detailed information as usual. I really appreciate it.

[Troy Smith]

On 6/8/2018 at 23:31, James B said:

Where I'm coming unstuck is things like the tail colours. When did these start being added? Were they the same colour for all planes in the squadron?

found my US Airforce Colors ETO just now,  while not actually looking for it...

page 72

rudders marked after Dec 1944

456th yellow

328th red

487th blue

All the planes in the squadron would have been the same color.

 

Did you want to know more about the debate on the blue colors used on the nose?  There are threads on this...

 

@James B if you can find a copy cheapish in NZ of Dana's book, it's well worth getting,  I've  had mine since,. erm, 1981 or 82... one of my first really good reference books, and taught me the value of a carefully selected and well captioned photos

 

cheers

T

[James B]

I'll keep an eye out for it, thank you, and thank you for all the info as well it's exactly what I needed.

[Mike Starmer]

In broad terms the coloured noses and tail denoted groups and squadrons.  8th A.F used the nose colour(s) to denote group and tail/rudder colours to denote squadrons to which there was a sequence based on pre-war practice.   In 9th A.F. Group colours on tail and squadron colour(s) on nose.  This all became official in early 1944 although one or two groups started late 1943.  As an aside, Preddy's aircraft was shot down by own AA as it approached the gunsite which had been forewarned of approaching hostiles.  When they opened fire they could not had seen any under fuselage bands due to the approach angle.  Basically expecting hostiles and poor recognition.  Not unusual by both sides. 

[Boman]

No, 9th AF also started introducing colors parallell to the 8th AF, ie late 44. Spring 44 saw most units still flying with black on NMF and white on OD/OG schemes. 

This is documented in Dana Bells AF colors and markings of the ETO and MTO aswell as 9th AF in color.