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25(F) Squadron to reform


XV107
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Well that took long enough to get into the public domain....

 

A cunning plan some months in the making finally realised today. Also, if the need to reduce pilot training throughput arises as about the time the third front line F-35 Squadron appears, Happy IV will be contenders to be the numberplate for that.

Edited by XV107
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23 Squadron was disbanded as a Sentry operator because it was too expensive to have two squadron hierarchies and support staff operating a small fleet of aircraft now less than a decade later despite continuing pressing financial constraints there is a need to have two squadrons operating a different small fleet of aircraft.

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Fail to see how this will increase the throughput of pilots as surely they`ll have the same number of jets available and instructors?

 

With reducing numbers of aircraft physically available i fail to see how training requirements will be met for both UK needs and those of overseas air forces we currently train

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:50 PM, Des said:

23 Squadron was disbanded as a Sentry operator because it was too expensive to have two squadron hierarchies and support staff operating a small fleet of aircraft now less than a decade later despite continuing pressing financial constraints there is a need to have two squadrons operating a different small fleet of aircraft.

But that's how it works.  Neddy 1 makes compelling business case that there will be significant cost savings by combining two squadrons under one infrastructure.  Gets promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while Neddy 2, who has replaced the promoted Neddy 1, makes compelling business case that splitting, or even atomising, squadrons will create more command opportunities for junior officers and thus improve recruitment and retention.  New group of top neddies, who were not in post when previous decision was made, agree that this is a whizzo idea and it is implemented.  Neddy 2 get promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while the new and ambitious Neddy 3 comes along and has a brilliant idea...

Edited by Seahawk
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1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

But that's how it works.  Neddy 1 makes compelling business case that there will be significant cost savings by combining two squadrons under one infrastructure.  Gets promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while Neddy 2, who has replaced the promoted Neddy 1, makes compelling business case that splitting, or even atomising, squadrons will create more command opportunities for junior officers and thus improve recruitment and retention.  New group of top neddies, who were not in post when previous decision was made, agree that this is a whizzo idea and it is implemented.  Neddy 2 get promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while the new and ambitious Neddy 3 comes along and has a brilliant idea...

I think you have summed it up quite nicely.

 

Recall a conversation with someone from the Press Office of an RAF Station housing the MPA fleet while it was still going strong and its future seemed assured and being told that there were more Wing Commanders assigned than there were aircraft based there.

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I found this (recent-ish) list of the  Top 30 RAF Sqn's in terms of Seniority, don't know the chap who submitted the FOI request (Mr Steve Cheeseman) but he deserves a medal!

 

That may indicate who is line for the next Squadron of Scrogg's Wonder Jets!    It's the second reply (dated 21 July 2017 )that has the actual response he was after.

 

Sad to say my old lot don't feature. 😞 

 

RAF Sqn Seniority FOI Response

 

 

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Yes, I think 74 Sqn jumped the queue in 1984,  and of course  617 trump everyone!  Still, a nice guide, and well done to 25, I had my back seat trip in one of their F3's many moons ago. 

 

I reckon that  43(F) have 84 Years, 2 Months and 15 Days, so way behind the top 30. 

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As the accruing of seniority with the abandonment of the R suffix isn't back-dated, I suspect that it's been done to avoid IV slipping down the seniority list any further - it was 3rd in 2010 and as can be seen from the FOI, had dropped to 16th. If the R suffix restriction on accrual of seniority hadn't been dropped, IV would've dropped behind 70 at the start of next year.

 

I suspect that the thought of seeing one of the RAF's first squadrons (via the RFC, obviously) dropping out of contention for reforming on anything other than a training aircraft wasn't particularly appealing to anyone in the current Air Staff. 

 

A couple of other senior (now 'senior-ish') units benefit as well - 60 Squadron was once 8th on the list and while it might have slipped a place or two after the short periods between Javelin and Andover and then between Andover and Wessex, it plummeted down the list once it had the R suffix, with the serious risk that it might find itself disappearing. XV and 16 were both quite senior; 16 now benefits, while XV will only arrest its decline if reformed in the fairly near future; 45, on the other hand, will start making its way back up the list. It also means that 56 and 92 should start earning seniority, even though their roles are rather different from what they once were...

 

The only squadron where this would have been a real problem would've been 76 were it still with us - as it doesn't have a standard, I suspect that it'd have got the number of a currently dormant squadron.  

 

That said, this doesn't  - and can't - address the problem that long-serving and notable units such as 19, 20, 23, 43, 74 and 111, all of which are quite distinguished are at risk of never reappearing. As things stand, 74 is pretty much done for bar some remarkable sleight of hand (there is a body of opinion which says that it's the RAF's fast jet Tiger Squadron and thus something should be done to get it back on the lists somehow), and even allowing for role association

 

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11 hours ago, Boman said:

Some of these units are actually active already; 

 

 

The King Airs have gone, 45 are currently working up on the Phenom, although it's alleged they have bent two of them already

 

 

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9022750

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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 3:12 PM, Seahawk said:

But that's how it works.  Neddy 1 makes compelling business case that there will be significant cost savings by combining two squadrons under one infrastructure.  Gets promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while Neddy 2, who has replaced the promoted Neddy 1, makes compelling business case that splitting, or even atomising, squadrons will create more command opportunities for junior officers and thus improve recruitment and retention.  New group of top neddies, who were not in post when previous decision was made, agree that this is a whizzo idea and it is implemented.  Neddy 2 get promotion for brilliant idea: result!  After a while the new and ambitious Neddy 3 comes along and has a brilliant idea...

:lol::lol:. That's very good but, I was thinking more along these lines!! :



In the Beginning was The Plan
And then came the Assumptions
And the Assumptions were without form
And the Plan was completely without substance
And the darkness was upon the face of the Workers
And the Workers spoke amongst themselves, saying
"It is a crock of s***, and it stinketh."
And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and sayeth,
"It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers and sayeth unto them,
"It is a container of excrement and it is very strong,
     such that none may abide by it."
And the Managers went unto their Directors and sayeth,
"It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength."
And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying one to another,
"It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."
And the Directors went unto the Vice Presidents and sayeth unto them,
"It promotes growth and is very powerful."
And the Vice Presidents went unto the President and sayeth unto him,
"This new Plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this
     Company, and in these Areas in particular."
And the President looked upon The Plan,
And saw that it was good, and The Plan became Policy.
And this is how S*** Happens.

 

Allan

 

ps - I can relate to your original post. 40 years in the Civil Service!! Believe me, that was REALITY!!:lol:


 

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6 hours ago, Albeback52 said:

In the Beginning was The Plan
And then came the Assumptions
And the Assumptions were without form
And the Plan was completely without substance
And the darkness was upon the face of the Workers
And the Workers spoke amongst themselves, saying
"It is a crock of s***, and it stinketh."
And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and sayeth,
"It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers and sayeth unto them,
"It is a container of excrement and it is very strong,
     such that none may abide by it."
And the Managers went unto their Directors and sayeth,
"It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength."
And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying one to another,
"It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."
And the Directors went unto the Vice Presidents and sayeth unto them,
"It promotes growth and is very powerful."
And the Vice Presidents went unto the President and sayeth unto him,
"This new Plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this
     Company, and in these Areas in particular."
And the President looked upon The Plan,
And saw that it was good, and The Plan became Policy.
And this is how S*** Happens.

 

That explains Police Scotland then !!

 

(Dinosaur from the dark depths of time when we did the job wearing collars and ties with nothing more than half a wooden chair leg and a personality to back it up)

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:08 AM, Boman said:

Some of these units are actually active already; 

Reserve or (formerly) shadow identities' usage do not count towards seniority.

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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 6:34 PM, Troffa said:

Yes, I think 74 Sqn jumped the queue in 1984, 

Not so much jumped the queue, just a case of who you know, not what you know. Back then a certain amount of lobbying from officers could go a long way, especially if they were ex-Tigers. No such luck in todays environment. 

As noted elsewhere, it would be great if 74 returned on Typhoons and the RAF got it`s Tiger squadron back, (no offence to 230 Sqn by the way), but you could say I`m slightly biased on the matter......

 

 

Edited by tc2324
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On 8/13/2018 at 10:41 AM, Truro Model Builder said:

Reserve or (formerly) shadow identities' usage do not count towards seniority.

 

They do now. Change of policy in the last couple of years.

 

45 was often quoted as the likely 'next most senior' Squadron at the time the third Lightning Squadron was proposed in the late 70s. By the time the F4J was coming into service, that identity had been absorbed by the TWCU.....

Edited by Dave Fleming
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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:19 PM, Dave Fleming said:

 

They do now. Change of policy in the last couple of years.

 

45 was often quoted as the likely 'next most senior' Squadron at the time the third Lightning Squadron was proposed in the late 70s. By the time the F4J was coming into service, that identity had been absorbed by the TWCU.....

The 39 Sqn number plate was initially set aside for the F-4J but luckily enough a person with a lot of scrambled egg on their hat intervened and ordered 74 to be reactivated.

A bomber unit flying fighters just wasn`t cricket in his book.

 

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On 8/17/2018 at 2:35 PM, tc2324 said:

The 39 Sqn number plate was initially set aside for the F-4J but luckily enough a person with a lot of scrambled egg on their hat intervened and ordered 74 to be reactivated.

A bomber unit flying fighters just wasn`t cricket in his book.

 

Quite right too. Would really like to see 74's stylised tiger stripes back in use - on a fighter, obviously.   Having said that 39 did fly Meteor NF13s for a while.  Thinking about it wasn't it a Home Defence squadron during the first unpleasantness? 

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