Most Common RAF Underside Colour - Battle of Britain

[nheather]

Hi,

 

Forgive me, I know the "what colour were the undersides of RAF fighters painted" is an often asked question and the answer is not straight forward but bear with me.

 

I'm not generally an aircraft modeller, but I have some small models to paint up for a Battle of Britain wargame - I'm not too bothered by absolute accuracy but I want them to look about right.

 

The easiest paints for me to get hold of are Vallejo.  When it comes to RAF undersides they offer three choices

 

71.009 Eau de Nil "Duck Egg Green"

71.302 Sky Type S

71.404 No 1 Sky Blue "Duck Egg Blue"

 

Looking at some actual paint swatches, the Sky Type S looks like a light colour with a subtle green hint, the Eau de Nil looks much more green and the Sky Blue looks like Light Blue.

 

Appreciating that there is evidence that different colours where used, but which of these would have been the most common.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[gingerbob]

Sky was the official colour, so that's what I'd go with.

[Stew Dapple]

"Duck Egg Green" and "Duck Egg Blue" were not official names either, the names for the relevant paints noted above were Eau de Nil and Sky Blue, the phrase "Duck Egg Green/Blue" was also frequently applied to Sky in early correspondence.

 

It has been suggested that Eau de Nil and Sky Blue were used due to an initial shortage of Sky (as it was a relatively new paint and there was a lag between introduction and manufacturers producing sufficient paint to re-do the undersides of the entire day fighter force plus Coastal Command) so if you use those colours it would be on aircraft repainted at base or Maintenance Unit level for a comparatively short time, say between June 1940 and the end of the Battle of Britain at the latest.

 

I don't think anyone has claimed that the Eau de Nil or Sky Blue were in widespread use, only as a stopgap in areas where sufficient supplies of Sky were not available, so I'd concur with Gingerbob that your best bet would be Sky.

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

 

EDIT: for complete transparency, I have finished Battle of Britain aircraft with both Eau de Nil and Sky Blue undersides as well as Sky, just because I liked the colours and there was no direct evidence to contradict their use on the aircraft in question (which of course is not the same as proof those colours were used)  

[Beard]

Sky was the official underside colour from 11th August 1940.

 

This is as good a guide as any to the colour of Spitfire undersides.

 

[Stew Dapple]

Simon, the requirement for undersides to be painted Sky was issued in June 1940, first without underside roundels, and from August 1940 with underside roundels

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, nheather said:

Hi,

 

Forgive me, I know the "what colour were the undersides of RAF fighters painted" is an often asked question and the answer is not straight forward but bear with me.

 

I'm not generally an aircraft modeller, but I have some small models to paint up for a Battle of Britain wargame - I'm not too bothered by absolute accuracy but I want them to look about right.

 

The easiest paints for me to get hold of are Vallejo.  When it comes to RAF undersides they offer three choices

 

71.009 Eau de Nil "Duck Egg Green"

71.302 Sky Type S

71.404 No 1 Sky Blue "Duck Egg Blue"

 

Looking at some actual paint swatches, the Sky Type S looks like a light colour with a subtle green hint, the Eau de Nil looks much more green and the Sky Blue looks like Light Blue.

 

Appreciating that there is evidence that different colours where used, but which of these would have been the most common.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

We don't know, theoretically it's Sky

Aircraft built after a certain date should have been factory finished in Sky, and it makes sense that they would have been supplied with the correct paint. In the case of Spitfires there is the site listing all the production, 

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

If the FF date, first flown, is after mid June 1940, it's most likely Sky.

Previous Airframes will be the repaints.

The same data for Hurricane's is not available generally.

Also, here's a summary of various posts and cuttings on the subject.

 

The drawing Posted by @Beard is from the Ducimus guide

All the series are scanned here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings

Well worth your time reading these.

The more recent work is Britain Alone by Paul Lucas, the underside debate sections are in the link though.

 

I would not always trust Vallejo to get colour right, but your descriptions sound like what they should be.

 

Finally,  and off topic, you might want to check out IPMS Mid Sussex,  I can bring along the RAF museum paint chips chart if you want to compare some of the Vallejo colours.

 

HTH

T

[Graham Boak]

7 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

"Duck Egg Green" and "Duck Egg Blue" were not official names either, the names for the relevant paints noted above were Eau de Nil and Sky Blue, the phrase "Duck Egg Green/Blue" was also frequently applied to Sky in early correspondence.

 

Duck Egg Blue was regularly referred to in official correspondence, not just early on, and always referred to Sky.  I agree that it would be more sensible had Sky Blue been called Duck Egg Blue, which apparently had been the colour recommended by RAE's camouflage experts, and Sky as Duck Egg Green, but there appears to be no official suggestion of that split of use.  Despite suggestions that Sky was in short supply, it had been an official RAF paint for Blenheim undersides for several months, so there seems no convincing argument that aircraft coming off the production line were in any other colour.

I have considerable doubts about Eau de Nil, and will retain that until someone quotes the official RAF Stores reference for it.  People do not slap any old paint onto aircraft, but only those paints available and cleared for use on aircraft.   The PRU was allowed to experiment with different colours, so if there were a handful of PRU aircraft in something approaching Eau de Nil, that's possible but I don't recall any such reference.   

 

All very logical, but the matter remains open as to which paint was available at unit level for repainting those aircraft already in service.  It is perhaps worth repeating that the only evidence for Eau de Nil on aircraft seems to be the interpretation of remains of four fighters dug out of crash sites, all from units operating in South Yorkshire/North Humberside at the time of Sky's introduction.

[tango98]

And then there was this:

[tango98]

Followed by this which might explain a slight difference in appearance to the observer between an over-painted white or black wing:

 

[tango98]

And another one...........

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The last signal makes a fairly strong point against the use of Sky-substitutes, though it does show that there was something of a shortage of the real thing.  Continuing to use the established colours in an interim period is the military way.

[tango98]

36 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Continuing to use the established colours in an interim period is the military way

You’re right there Graham; at least it mostly still was when I left ‘the mob’ in 1980.

 

Cheers

Dave

[tango98]

And yet another one for Gloster Aircraft in respect of Hurricane finishing.

 

 

[tempestfan]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:22 PM, tango98 said:

And then there was this:

A nice „catch all“ description 😄 Thanks for bringing those out.

 I assume the reference to DTD 308 vs 314 concerns the type of dope, even if it’s only referring to the dope for the fabric ailerons I think. Does that help in regard to the Smooth vs Synthetic aspect for the „S“, as the second communique you posted makes a „repeat S“ emphasis?

[ClaudioN]

from Michael J. F. Bowyer, "Fighting Colours", RAF fighter camouflage and markings 1937-1975, PSL, 1975:

"During May home-based fighters began to wear new under surface colours. Silver was certainly applied to some aircraft, evident on Spitfires in June. Predominant were pale shades of blue, but some Hurricanes that I saw at Debden and Duxford had deep blue under surfaces. These variations were presumably due to the fact that dope was mixed at the stations. Usually this Sky tint, which was meant to be blue, was more accurately a pale shade of green casued by about a 4% addition of yellow to the mix. At the time it was commonly referred to as duck egg green, but it later received the official and less accurate designation of Duck Egg Blue. Later the shade was renamed Sky. In later years Sky Type 'S' ('S', according to the manufacturers, denoted 'smooth' to differentiate it from the early rough Titanine Camotint) was a much lighter tone than that of 1940."

 

This may add an eyewitness account to Paul Lucas' archaeological findings. The overall picture may be not so entirely straightforward as official dispatches alone would make us believe.

 

Claudio

 

[Fernando]

Hallo, everyone,

 

Spinners and tail "Fighter Command" bands were also in Sky (I mean the "regular" Sky Type S) or were painted Sky Blue at some time?

 

Fernando

[gingerbob]

Yes.  In other words, they were supposed to be Sky, but in some cases look distinctly bluer than the underside.  Whether it was Sky Blue or happened to look much like Sky Blue is a somewhat open question, but it never seems to be the other way around, that the underside looks bluer than the band/spinner.

[Graham Boak]

21 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

At the time it was commonly referred to as duck egg green, but it later received the official and less accurate designation of Duck Egg Blue. Later the shade was renamed Sky. In later years Sky Type 'S' ('S', according to the manufacturers, denoted 'smooth' to differentiate it from the early rough Titanine Camotint) was a much lighter tone than that of 1940."

 

This may add an eyewitness account to Paul Lucas' archaeological findings.

 

Remember that this was written before the official papers were opened, and some of it is just plain wrong.  The Fighter Command colour was always Sky type S, not later renamed so.    It was also known in official correspondence as duck egg blue from the start.  There wasn't a change in tone in later years. 

 I love Bowyer's work, it is full of fascinating details, buy it does and did rely upon collated  comments from a  number of different observers, and evidence from different witnesses rarely agree.   I suspect that different witnesses may have been seeing the same colour - or colours - and simply describing them in different ways.

[JackG]

I must have missed this thread or forgot it, but now that I have been searching in earnest on how to depict an RCAF Hurricane during the early  summer of 1940, it has got me thinking...

 

Concerning the directive that was issued allowing the continued use of b/w undersides due to shortages of Sky type S, there must of been another one sent out at some point that disallowed it.   Why else  would the Canadian unit be punished on the 11th of July for flying a Hurricane with the b/w undersides.  The Squadron as a whole, was grounded until said aircraft was painted correctly.   It was also during these next six days that the proper fuselage codes were added to their aircraft.

 

Assuming this was an isolated incident, does this mean that all RAF fighters squadrons by this time had a single colour underneath, as Britain certainly could not afford to ground fighter units at this time.   Further to this, that means either  Sky Type S was in abundant supply by then, or some other paint colour(s) was being used in addition to the regulation one?

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

I must have missed this thread or forgot it, but now that I have been searching in earnest on how to depict an RCAF Hurricane during the early  summer of 1940, it has got me thinking...

 

Concerning the directive that was issued allowing the continued use of b/w undersides due to shortages of Sky type S, there must of been another one sent out at some point that disallowed it.   Why else  would the Canadian unit be punished on the 11th of July for flying a Hurricane with the b/w undersides.  The Squadron as a whole, was grounded until said aircraft was painted correctly.   It was also during these next six days that the proper fuselage codes were added to their aircraft.

 

Assuming this was an isolated incident, does this mean that all RAF fighters squadrons by this time had a single colour underneath, as Britain certainly could not afford to ground fighter units at this time.  

The RAF was very up on obeying new marking regulations,  note the application of fin flashes and yellow rings to units based in France in May 1940.

There was also a steady stream of new aircraft arriving, and the obvious place to introducer a new colour is factory level,  and being repaired,  which would be going through a Maintenance Unit.

Also, there maybe a sense of worry about a non RAF unit,  even if it was RCAF, witness the worries about 303 Sq.

 

 

Quote

Further to this, that means either  Sky Type S was in abundant supply by then, or some other paint colour(s) was being used in addition to the regulation one?

 

Links get lost or missed

this has a load of the discussions

 

yes, there were most likely unofficial mixes...  the above has quotes from various threads on here in the past and some scanned cuttings.

 

HTH

[JackG]

Thank you Troy. 

I wrote what I did because this thread seemed to end on a note that anything other than Sky Type S was unlikely to have been used.  The linked memos from Dave (tango98) are great, but I don't believe it means all that has been researched/written (including eye witness accounts) up to this point should be  ignored.

 

regards,

Jack

[prosser]

In my much treasured 1941 edition of "Fighter Pilot" by Paul Richey (which chronicles the experiences of No.1 squadron in France in 1940) there is a paragraph at the end of Chapter 5 where it states the No.1 pilots were fed up with the black/white undersides compared with the Luftwaffe pale blue.  As a result the squadron leader ordered all aircraft undersides to be painted "duck egg blue".  This would seem to be sometime in early April 1940, and the chapter finishes by saying this was soon adopted on all RAF fighter aircraft.

However, there are decal sets available for Paul Richey's own Hurricane ("dear old G" as he called her) which show the aircraft as having black/white undersides in May 1940.....maybe there wasn't time for a repaint, as "G" was destroyed on the ground on 11th May.

I know it's "off topic" but I'd still like to understand when squadron codes became standard.  There are several photos in this book from the early part of 1940 which have aircraft with just their recognition letter, and no codes...…..can anyone help??

Thanks

Martyn

[Graham Boak]

Squadron codes were introduced around he time of the Munich crisis, and were standard before the war, with the codes used prewar being altered to the wartime codes.  It was intended  that fresh codes would be issued at intervals, but this rarely occurred and never on a service-wide basis to the end of the system.  It seems a very few squadrons missed the instruction, and continued using their prewar codes for some months, leading to at least one duplication.  A unit in 1940 without using its allocated codes was doing its own thing, for unspecified reasons.  I believe you are thinking mainly of 73 Sq. - the photo in Fighter Pilot of such an aircraft shows a 73 Sq aircraft despite the claim in the caption.  (See Peter Cornwell's The Battle of France for confirmation of that.)  Presumably the publishers of Fighter PIlot had limited access to photographs of Hurricanes in France.  Other aircraft of 73 Sq at this time are seen with their full code set.

[JackG]

2 hours ago, prosser said:

... it states the No.1 pilots were fed up with the black/white undersides compared with the Luftwaffe pale blue.  As a result the squadron leader ordered all aircraft undersides to be painted "duck egg blue".  This would seem to be sometime in early April 1940, and the chapter finishes by saying this was soon adopted on all RAF fighter aircraft.

 

Thanks

Martyn

 

This is interesting because I have read that as early as January 1940, France was trying to convince the British to adopt their style of markings as well as underside colour to help avoid friendly fire incidents.

 

regards,

Jack

[Graham Boak]

The two fighter squadrons in the Advanced Air Striking Force (1 and 73) adopted Rudder stripes in the French fashion, presumably in response to this French initiative?