Listening to the Solstice

[Brandy]

Oooh, VERY nice! Not much more to add really 

 

Ian

[rob85]

Fine work and it brought out the frame an absolute treat 

 

Rob

[The Spadgent]

Back in black! Lovely. 😍

[bigbadbadge]

Wow Tony Wow great no amazing work. Getting very excited now the paint work is started.

Keep up the good work.

All the best

Chris

[hendie]

blackity black!

[TheBaron]

On 5/17/2019 at 2:08 PM, bbudde said:

Kindly spoken through my crystal ball

Thanks Benedikt. That was one frightening image!

23 hours ago, keefr22 said:

I love the looks on the faces of the boys in the band!!

Fourth from the left, pursed of lip.

You know damn well what he's thinking....

21 hours ago, giemme said:

Primer's on, eventually!

Glad you approve Maestro.  If I can only colour it in to half the standard you do I'll be happy Giorgio.

20 hours ago, Hamden said:

Primer pulls everything together

Doesn't it just Roger? 😃

And shows me how much fluff and dust there is around in my supposedly cleaned-up-for painting-bench. 😬

(Reckon I need one of them NASA clean rooms they use for prepping space probes...)

20 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

I knew you were a couple eggs shy of a coo-cooes nest! But aren't we all?

Its what brings us together Anthony. 🤣

20 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

YOU ARE the bar!

Nonsense dear fellow. I stand on the shoulders of giants &etc. etc.

20 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

I've got a red one somewhere......

That's the rumour...

19 hours ago, perdu said:

Yup

Ta. 😁

18 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Not much more to add really 

Nowt else needed Ian. Your interest is enough.

16 hours ago, rob85 said:

it brought out the frame an absolute treat 

Must have got mildewed Rob.

It turned green overnight!

14 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Back in black!

🤘 

4 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

Getting very excited now the paint work is started.

Me too a bit Chris, despite my earlier trepidation at painting any of it...

51 minutes ago, hendie said:

blackity black!

-don't talk back!

Oh wait.

That was a different song.... 😸

On 5/17/2019 at 1:53 PM, TheBaron said:

I'll come back to that with fresh eyes tomorrow and make a note of what needs tidying up.

Quick visual check at dawn revealed that there was indeed a bit of remedial work needed on the interior aspect of the wing roots due to the amount that would be visible through the greenhouse windows:

That lip 'twixt the scrap card I walled them in with and the fuselage was dealt with by some Humbrol filler in the places it would be noticable:

Of all the fillers I've tried I love the ease and finish of this Humbrol stuff for such jobs and find it easily planes flat with a scalpel blade held between thumb and forefinger; you can feel even very slight imperfections in the finished surface.

 

Whilst that was drying I shot some metallics. Alclad steel for the exhaust ring and oil coolers:

I'll be coming back to those exhaust rings in a future installment to tone and discolour....

Aluminium for the engine blocks:

The cylinder heads and carburettor/fuel pump assemblies will be returned to black via brush painting later, then some weathering and the oil pipe and wiring looms to add. BTW, if you think the left hand one of thatpair of engines looks a bit truncated compared to its companion, your right, and it's on account of that being the the starboard one that needed the cylinder heads amputating to fit inside the nacelle. Only the front of that engine needs detailing as well, hence is deliberately unfinished around the sides.

 

This has doubtless been noted countless times before:

Tamiya doubling-up on their lid colours? 

I can't tell the difference.

 

Plan is to XF-71 the necessary parts and come back later in several passes to shade and highlight.

En passant...

Not going to pointlessly recapitulate any discussion of colour fidelity here but I did discover the following post by the estimable @Nick Millman

from a few years back that seems spot-onin erudition regarding the additional sociological and historical factors that lie behind our adoption of colours for particular tasks:

 A valuable lesson in unthinkingly projecting our present modes back upon the past.

Thanks Nick.

 

The Greening:

 

As with the engines, much to do adding black back to the IP, seat cushions and straps &etc. as well as shade/highlight. I love what Giorgio does with tempera at such stages but haven't been able to find a reasonably priced set so far, so will stick with oils for now, that leave me with no complaint tbh.

From (non-restoration!) photographs I can't tell should that firewall be bare metal or shiny grey, it looks both in various photos..

That wing-root 'lip' I started off with has disappearred nicely under the old verdigris now:

Again, more black to add for electrical panels and bomb-aimer's switch and so on and so4th.

 

If I may I'm going to end with a colour question that the combined expertise on here may be able to help me with?

Digging around in various publications (Warpaint, Ray Sturtivant's The Anson File, back copy of SAM) there are a number of options for the colour of the undersides of Mk.1s of this period. The callout in the original  kit instructions is for Light Grey, as was indeed the case on many aircraft, but equally for the same period there are Mk.1s listed with both silver undersides and also black. As a Special Duty aircraft factory-fresh and seconded from Boscombe to Wyton for these beam missions I'm all of a quandary as to what choice to make (in the absence of definitive directions for this aircraft).

 

Michael Cumming's excellent Beam Bombers: The Secret War of 109 Squadron (thanks @corsaircorp for the brilliant reference to this!) makes no mention of any deviation from the standard paint scheme (not that you would necessarily expect this level of detail in a history book) and  of course, in the light of Nick Milman's observations that any semi-offical changes may have gone unrecorded in the historical record anyway  in this highly fraught period of the war (June 1940) when events were moving incredibly fast all at once....

 

Two of the drawings at the back of Ray Sturtivant's book for Mk.1s of this period show a Night underside, so in the absence of any contradictory information regarding N9945 I'm going to go with that.

Think that's a safe enough distinction?

 

The one big problem staring me in the face is the an absence of documentation as to what the squadron codes down the side of the fuselage might have been for this aircraft, but again I think Mr Sturtivant may have helped:

I am grossly ignorant in such matters guys - does the 'HS' here indicate that these would have been the two letters painted after the roundel on the side of the fueslage?

 

Thanks for persisting with today;s witterings....

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

[perdu]

4 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

I am grossly ignorant in such matters guys - does the 'HS' here indicate that these would have been the two letters painted after the roundel on the side of the fueslage?

 

Although similarly ignorant I would say the HS does indeed indicate the unit marking for the Annie

It is most likely to be that but that doesnt help if you needed to check a particular machine's individual letter

 

But you already have that dont  you

 

[bigbadbadge]

Great work Tony, I have seen two lots of Paint on your model today, you are really spoiling us.  Alright I know you did the black a couple of days ago, but I only caught up today !!!

 

Keep up the great work

All the best

Chris

[giemme]

 Paint!

 

Don't you love spraying the interior color on top of a black coat? It already gives you that sense of depth and volumes that the wash and highlights will then complete. Great stuff!  

 

Ciao

[keefr22]

3 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Not going to pointlessly recapitulate any discussion of colour fidelity here

 

I accept that Tony, but I can't help but point out that, IIRC, I ''think'' XF-71 Cockpit green is intended as an interior colour for certain Japanese aircraft. If, as I suspect, Annie had an RAF grey-green interior, then it's rather too light and not 'olive' enough. With regard to the Spitfire cockpit colour thread, I haven't read it all, but from memory some early Spits were painted 'Eau de Nil'  which I believe is rather like 'Sky' and thus XF-71.

 

Only posting this as you're taking such pains to get this model as right as can be, I'm not 100%certain, but I believe that interior to be the wrong colour and you might want to check? (Or you might not!!)

 

Can't help with the underside colour, but if it were my model and I had to 'guess', given it's mission I'd go for black...

 

Keith

 

 

[Terry1954]

I'm sure I have said this before but this really is a masterclass in modelling, and especially the use of brass. Very inspired by this work Tony, and progress in the last few days appears to be epic!

 

I am working my way back through the thread today as I need to pick up as much as I can on these brass techniques as applied to model aircraft. My plan is to use brass on some of the strut work on my 1/72 Aeroclub Gloster Gamecock (see elsewhere for meagre progress). My rationale is that although it will take a lot of effort but provide excellent strength and rigidity in the areas that need it. Don't hold your breath though! Meanwhile there will be an update today on the IRIAF F-5E, and a sneak preview of work to date on a 1/35 AMX-13 in the Armour section.

 

Inspired of deepest Dorset

 

Terry

[pheonix]

Catching up again Tony after being absent from the UK again! Greta to see the paint going on at last - it has taken time to get here but my it has been worth it with all of the extra intricate detils added. Really looking forward to seeing this finally come together - a worthy tribute to the crew of that machine.

 

P

[bbudde]

Great update Tony and a well deserved little snack after a heavy, but convincing work.  A little "Schnitzel Brötchen (bun)"  inbetween of the exhausting work? 

 

Cheers

Edited May 18, 2019 by bbudde

[hendie]

my vote is for black undersides though I admit to being completely uninformed about anything Anson, unless Daleks are involved.

 

greenity green!

 

 

I'm with Keefr22 (though not in the biblical sense!) ...  maybe just a tad too green on the greenness?  Throw in a hint of leek ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CedB]

Nice paint Tony  

I'd go for the Colourcoats interior green if it were me and let Jamie do all the research, but then I'm lazy...

 

Dusty bench? Get one of these and you can clean up with ease!

[TheBaron]

20 hours ago, perdu said:

but that doesnt help if you needed to check a particular machine's individual letter

 

But you already have that dont  you

Err...Yes!

In the sense of...No!

Three aircraft, 109Sqn, seconded from Boscombe to Wyton  is all I got Bill. IIRC BATDU consisted of Ansons & Whitelys during this period but I'm clueless about the identifying letters of individual aircraft, regarding what flight N9945 was in &etc.

18 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

I only caught up today

Don't worry Chris - I'm still catching up iwht myself regarding the reality of actually painting anything... 😄

17 hours ago, giemme said:

Don't you love spraying the interior color on top of a black coat? It already gives you that sense of depth and volumes that the wash and highlights will then complete.

Exactement! And having taken notes from your own work Giorgio....

 

16 hours ago, keefr22 said:

I ''think'' XF-71 Cockpit green is intended as an interior colour for certain Japanese aircraft.

It is Keith, but as far as Tamiya colours go  I went through a number of threads here and elsewhere in which people were happy with this as an RAF approximation too, for reasons I agree with. As a foundation it gives a good basis to apply the necessary blusher and mascara to turn Annie into Kylie! 😄

 

16 hours ago, keefr22 said:

I believe that interior to be the wrong colour and you might want to check?

 

11 hours ago, hendie said:

I'm with Keefr22

I apologize for the non-bonzer photographs guys. Not my finest owl.

Norrmally batch-process them for scale and white point to post in the forum using a script in Photoshop. Unfortunately I have a second script that I use to contrast-stretch images for lectures (where you frequently have a crap projector to fight with) and had applied it here. You'd think I'd bleeding notice.

Here's a comparison with the actual on the left and the distorted (as posted previously) on the right:

Wash, filter and highlight beckons....

16 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I need to pick up as much as I can on these brass techniques as applied to model aircraft.

For a true brassmasterclass Terry...

 

16 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

Meanwhile there will be an update today on the IRIAF F-5E, and a sneak preview of work to date on a 1/35 AMX-13 in the Armour section.

I shall seek them out later!

16 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

Inspired of deepest Dorset

Did I read somewhere you had the Flying Scotsman visiting your locale recently?

12 hours ago, pheonix said:

to see the paint going on at last

If I ever write an autobiography, that may well be the title!

(Glad you've been able t ostay the course.)

11 hours ago, bbudde said:

A little "Schnitzel Brötchen (bun)

Dear God Benedikt - where do you find these things? 😆

I can't work out is that man eating that thing or is he trying to defend himself as it attacks him! 😱

11 hours ago, hendie said:

my vote is for black undersides

Between thyself and Keith I'll take that as a majority verdict h.

55 minutes ago, CedB said:

I'd go for the Colourcoats interior green if it were me and let Jamie do all the research

I'd be happy to buy from Jamie too Ced (love the look of his colours) but the website says he doesnae deliver to this island...

55 minutes ago, CedB said:

Dusty bench? Get one of these and you can clean up with ease!

The b******d'd choke to death inside a minute in this Steptoe's yard.

(Glad to see you back around btw Ced, I was getting worried not to see your dulcet on the forum recently. )

 

Right.

I'm off to break out the oil paint and turps. Where's me smock?

 

[Heather Kay]

Being someone almost completely obsessed with aircraft that served all sides in 1940, I’d like to throw my tuppence in about the likely underside colours of Annie. I am emphatically not an expert, and bow to the superior knowledge of other BM members here, but… 

 

I am led to understand that since Ansons were generally operated by RAF Coastal Command, they would have been finished in the standard dark earth/dark green on top, with aluminium dope undersides, during most of 1940. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean that a plane destined for a clandestine mission at night might not have been treated differently. Logically, such an aircraft might have received either a quick respray of overall black, or black undersides with the standard disruptive camo on top.

 

A side note, for those that do care about these things, the black undersides of bombers of the period was not actually black, but a special mix termed "Night Black". Specialist model paint makers provide the correct mix. I have a pot from Hannants in their Xtracrylix range, and next to a plain matt black there is a subtle difference.

 

All of the above are my own thoughts, and I will happily be corrected by others.

[Stalker6Recon]

3 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

special mix termed "Night Black".

It's interesting that you mention this. When I was in the US Army, this topic came up with regards to camouflage. When you look around at nature, black, true black, does not exist, hence there was strong opposition to having any black colors in our uniforms, originating from the Marine Corp if my memory serves. The darker earth colors are more than adequate, since at night, they basically look black or hard to see. If you use NOD's, black is the easiest color to see, strangely. My old uniforms were great in woodland setting, but my solid black balaclava stoop out like black olive in a bowl of white rice! The standard balaclava were had, was an earthy brown, which blended better than the black, by a long shot.

 

Anyway, thought I would throw in the little bit of history regarding black in camouflage uniforms, hope you guys enjoyed!

 

As per usual, the kit is coming along fantastic, keep up the good work!

 

Anthony

[Terry1954]

4 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Did I read somewhere you had the Flying Scotsman visiting your locale recently?

You did indeed, although I hasten to add it never actually left Swanage station to make the journey up the hill to my house, so I only caught a glimpse when I passed by the station!

 

3 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

A side note, for those that do care about these things, the black undersides of bombers of the period was not actually black, but a special mix termed "Night Black".

I never realised that, interesting. I'll have to seek out said Xtracrylic and give that one a try. I should add that I rarely use pure black on models even for stuff that is supposed to be, like tyres or radomes, even whole airframes. Always mix a tad grey or brown in for good measure!

 

Terry

[perdu]

7 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

You did indeed, although I hasten to add it never actually left Swanage station to make the journey up the hill to my house, so I only caught a glimpse when I passed by the station!

 

I never realised that, interesting. I'll have to seek out said Xtracrylic and give that one a try. I should add that I rarely use pure black on models even for stuff that is supposed to be, like tyres or radomes, even whole airframes. Always mix a tad grey or brown in for good measure!

 

Terry

Agreed, I usually use German Grey instead of black

Both in Tamiya and in Vallejo they work well that way

I understand that night is basically a very very very dark blue with odds and sods of other tints within it

 

Nick Millman will probably be able to put me right on that

[keefr22]

And 'Night' was I believe a very 'chalky' paint that would rub off very easily, so aircraft painted in the stuff got very grotty looking very quickly.  

 

5 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Here's a comparison with the actual on the left and the distorted (as posted previously) on the right:

 

That left one looks much better! Odd that the paint pot lids for that and their version of 'sky' look the same!!

 

K

[TheBaron]

5 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

they would have been finished in the standard dark earth/dark green on top, with aluminium dope undersides, during most of 1940.

I'm no expert either Heather but as there's a beautiful photo in Ray Sturtivant's book of a flight of Ansons over Suez banking away from the camera to show black undersides dated 1939, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility so I'm going to run with black undersides here in this instance.

 

5 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

A side note

A valuable reminder Heather.

2 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

My old uniforms were great in woodland setting, but my solid black balaclava stoop out like black olive in a bowl of white rice! The standard balaclava were had, was an earthy brown, which blended better than the black, by a long shot.

Superb piece of personal observation Anthony.

 

In matters of aircraft paint I trust to experts such as Nick Milman who know far more than I can possibly imagine about the standards and processes used over time.

2 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

my solid black balaclava stoop out like black olive in a bowl of white rice

Evocative description.

2 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

Anyway, thought I would throw in the little bit of history regarding black in camouflage uniforms, hope you guys enjoyed!

There's been plenty of books on camouflage published in the last few years but little tha I can see on the role of colour perception in combat of this kind. If you write that book Anthony  I'll happily buy it! 😄

2 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I only caught a glimpse when I passed by the station!

I bet you grinned when you saw it!

1 hour ago, perdu said:

Agreed, I usually use German Grey instead of black

Exactly what I was using earlier Bill! (Though with a smidgeon of Flat Black stirred in for variety's sake)

40 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

And 'Night' was I believe a very 'chalky' paint that would rub off very easily, so aircraft painted in the stuff got very grotty looking very quickly.

Solid tip Keith: now if I end up with scuffs and fingerprints all over the undersides I can claim it's deliberately messy to look like the real thing!

40 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

Odd that the paint pot lids for that and their version of 'sky' look the same!!

Very! Especially as the lid for XF-71 bears no resemblance at all to what the contents look llike when dried!

 

A long painting session today coming and going from the bench to let things dry. Rather uncharacteristically I was looking forwards to getting stuck into colour work and used a simple process of various dark oil washes and some drybrushing for the highlights where necessary.

 

That yucky raw state with the first oil wash on. I've come to rely on Payne's Grey oils for this stage, cut here with a little Terre Vere to keep a bit of vibrancy to the darkened sections:

After doing this I found I also had a rather olive-y colour in the oil tin called 'Sap Green' which might have been nice to try as well but I'll keep that for next time. Being absorbed in this process I dodn't take any 'in-process' shots until near the end.

 

Here's the interior fuselage getting some dry-brushing with Sky Grey after knocking back the darker wash with White Spirit and cotton buds:

Steptoe's yard:

I wanted to keep the darker washes on the mellow side here as in the past I've tended to make them dramatically over-dark: pleasing in a way perhaps but a bit like turning the contrast up intrusively. I prefer the paler kind of outlining you can see around the door in the the AG's compartment for example:

The seat cushions turned our rather nicely in a slighty-distressed-black-leather mode. These were simply painted in a German Grey/Flat Black mixture, followed by a layer of Klear and a whisker or two of Sky Grey dry-brushing:

Variations on a theme with the engine-bearer and the bit the bomb-aimer lays on up front:

Similar pack drill on the internal framing:

Funnels of fun trying to dry-brush inside a complicated frame... 

A check on the optics of frame and fuselage together:

 

By this stage the concentration was going so time to stop.

 

Having been sprayed with steel yesterday, the exhaust rings had an umber oil wash today:

Plus the engine cylinders and rear gubbins on the Cheetah got some of the Grey'black mixture too:

That had some Klear and later a Payne's Grey wash but I think I'll come back during the week and add some black wash to really pick out the fine detail on that Engines & Things moulding.

 

Gosh. Where did Sunday go?

 

Thanks for your perseverance and I absolutely appreciate the discussion on colours and processes.

You are, as ever, a damn fine bunch of humans.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

[Heather Kay]

16 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

I'm no expert either Heather but as there's a beautiful photo in Ray Sturtivant's book of a flight of Ansons over Suez banking away from the camera to show black undersides dated 1939, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility so I'm going to run with black undersides here in this instance.

Overseas commands had different rules, if I understand things. Your chosen plane would have been under UK administration. Then again, black seems quite plausible. If Troy or Graham B turn up with further insight, I reckon you’re on to something. 

[TheBaron]

52 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

Overseas commands had different rules, if I understand things.

Good point Heather - and I don't know enough about what those distinctions might have been in this instance.

But look what I found going through my files for a photo with a serial number close to N9945!

N9946! The last one in her batch on the production line.

I found this lurking in my folder full of Anson images and no idea where it came from. (my apologies to the original poster for not crediting - happy to do so if you get in touch)

 

This one of course is missing a turret (Sturtivant pegs it as being in an OTU so maybe why?) and I've no date for the photo but certainly no black underside here.

Where does that leave me?

Same posish of course.

Could be black or silver underneath....

 

[Heather Kay]

4 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

This one of course is missing a turret (Sturtivant pegs it as being in an OTU so maybe why?) and I've no date for the photo but certainly no black underside here.

The markings show post-1941, and I would think the undersides would be Sky.

 

We can go down all sorts of rabbit holes regarding colours, markings and whatnot. Essentially, Dark Earth/Dark Green topsides, aluminium dope undersides for UK-based aircraft in Army Co-operation and Coastal Commands. Before about May or June, the port wing underside may have been painted black in an effort to aid identification of friendly planes.

 

The mission you’re depicting took place in June 1940, and the plane was fresh from the factory, iirc. Aluminium underneath is what I would expect, but as we’ve already discussed, it may well have been painted black to make it a bit less obvious in flight.

 

In the end, it’s your model to finish as you think best. Without definitive information one way or the other, we can’t be sure what the plane actually looked like on the night.