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Hi,

      I'm in the process of building a number of East Anglian based Phantoms and am in the painting stages on some of them. One of the machines I'm doing is a 48th TFW F-4D 65-0721 from the Xtradecal sheet. This is one of several aircraft which, for some reason, were finished in the two standard greens plus a rather sickly-looking colour which varies between a pea green or greenish tan in the photos I've seen. In the few places where I've seen it mentioned, it has been stated that the colour is FS 34201, which I have in the paint stash.

 

 Before I go ahead, is it known for sure that 34201 is indeed the correct (but wrong!) colour? I can't find anything that really confirms it.

 

Incidentally, two of the 48th TFW options on the Xtradecal sheet show the so-called 3-tone green scheme. I've seen a number of photos of '721 which clearly show that it is in this scheme, but the only photo I can find of the other option (65-0659) whilst serving with the 48th is most certainly in the standard SEA scheme. I have seen photos which show that there were some other machines finished in the 3-tone green scheme, both in the 48th and also 81st TFWs. There's one pic of an ex-48th machine (just before it was sent to Torrejon in Spain) which has had the incorrect green repainted on the tail fin only in the correct 30219, and makes for an interesting subject!

 

Finally, I'm sure I read a while back that the reason for the 3-tone green finish was that the paint was mis-labelled, but I haven't been able to find any further reference to it. I know it doesn't really matter, but I just don't like not knowing!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

p.s. whilst on the subject of greens, I seem to remember that the old Humbrol Authentic representation of 34079 was darker and slightly bluer than all the more modern representations of this colour, not to mention my FS 595a book. Now, while I know that you shouldn't trust memory or old photos, I have quite vivid memories of seeing a noticeably darker 34079 that looks an awful lot like the old Humbrol Authentic colour and plenty of 70s-era photos tend to back this up. I'm kinda tempted to try to replicate this on at least one of the Phantoms I'll be building, just out of curiosity.

 

 

 

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Contact Rhino aka Ted Bayliss who leads the IMPS F-4SIG and is the fount of all knowledge.

With regard to the greens, remember that the SEA scheme faded over time and some of the European F-4s had served in Vietnam before transfer. Another issue is the dark gray used in the lizard scheme. At an Alconbury show in the 1980s (85/86?) there were 3 lizard scheme F-4Es, 2 from SJ and one from SP. The gray on the SP a/c was smooth and mre akin to Dark Aircraft Gray, that on the stateside a/c was rougher and almost like dark charcoal. I did some research into this and managed to get into contact with somebody who worked int he paintshop at Kemble when many of the Phantoms and A-10s were serviced and painted there; his take on it was that there was no difference in the paint but in the pressure used in the spraygun which gave the different finish - both tonal and the level of matt.

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It was a bad batch of paint at the F-4 depot.  There was no FS595 equivalent, it was simply bad FS30219.  From what a friend who flew F-4s at the time told me (he is also a modeler), the units were directed to touch up paint them pretty fast after the depot let them go (which never should have happened).

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12 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

Hi,

      I'm in the process of building a number of East Anglian based Phantoms and am in the painting stages on some of them. One of the machines I'm doing is a 48th TFW F-4D 65-0721 from the Xtradecal sheet. This is one of several aircraft which, for some reason, were finished in the two standard greens plus a rather sickly-looking colour which varies between a pea green or greenish tan in the photos I've seen. In the few places where I've seen it mentioned, it has been stated that the colour is FS 34201, which I have in the paint stash.

 

As stated elsewhere on this thread, it was a bad batch of 30219.  65-0721 was originally with the 78th TFS, 81st TFW at RAF Woodbridge before going to Lakenheath.  I remember seeing it several times during my cop days at Woodbridge.  You could, as I plan on doing, use the WR tail code from one of the other offerings on the sheet instead of the LN code for Lakenheath.  Doing that you don't have to paint the 30219 under the LN tail code.  To me, Sky type S is a fairly close match to the greenish 30219.  Others may see the color differently.  To each their own!  A more recent photo of 721, taken in October of 2009 in the boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB is here:

Boneyard_09_F-4_Row_01

Besides doing 721 in its days at Woodbridge, I also plan on doing it in her final color scheme.

Later,

Dave

Edited by e8n2
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On 7/19/2018 at 8:08 PM, iainpeden said:

Contact Rhino aka Ted Bayliss who leads the IMPS F-4SIG

Do you have a link to the SIG? My ham-fisted search can't find it!

 

-Daz

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I believe there also existed a Phantom at Luke AFB with the pea green in lieu of 30219 tan. Not sure how long it lasted.

 

I wouldn't dismiss other reasons for differences in the European One grey, namely radar absorbent features.

 

But would love to hear the theories.

 

Tony

 

 

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7 hours ago, tony.t said:

I believe there also existed a Phantom at Luke AFB with the pea green in lieu of 30219 tan. Not sure how long it lasted.

Tony

 

 

The use of the "pea-green'. or "Goofy Green". as described by the editor of FSM, was much more widespread than it appears to be known. The paint was used for touch ups and in a limited sense for compete resprays, not only in Europe but across the Continental USA.  It seems to have missed PACAF which had their own locally produced sources and which resulted in some very divergent shades of Tan.

 

As well as Luke AFB, where the use for touch ups was quite widespread, the aircraft and Units that I recorded and photographed the "pea-green" paint in use were the following :-

347thTFW at Moody AFB - F-4E - touch up

35thTFW at George AFB - F-4E - touch up

179thTRS at Duluth - RF-4C (Minn ANG) - very nice aircraft in this scheme - complete

457thTFS at Carswell AFB  F-105D Thunderstick II - touch up

354thTFW at Myrtle Beach - A-7D - heavy touch up

 

The 18th TFW at Kadena produce their own Tan which was very much like our own "Light Earth" and the 3rdTFW at Clark, once they had absorbed the F-4E's from Anchorage, produced a very rich reddish Tan

 

There must have ben a hell of a lot of this "Bad Batch" produced.

 

HTH

 

Dennis  

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My understanding is that it all happened when the aircraft went through PDM at the depot.  For whatever reason, nobody there seemed to know or care that the 30219 was incorrect, so quite a few airplanes left there with the bad paint.  I believe PACAF aircraft at the time underwent PDM at Clark, which explains why you didn’t see them with that color.  Others all went through the same depot.

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My understanding was that it was FS34201 mis labelled. The UK and PACAF aircrafrt were either totally repainted, or in some cases touched up. I have seen a picture somewhere of a 48th TFW F-4D with the area behind the LN tailcode still in FS30219.

There was an example of a US based test aircraft with this green but that was an experimental camouflage scheme.

This debate has been going on for years and I suspect no resolution is forthcoming unfortunately.

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45 minutes ago, Rhino said:

My understanding was that it was FS34201 mis labelled. The UK and PACAF aircrafrt were either totally repainted, or in some cases touched up. I have seen a picture somewhere of a 48th TFW F-4D with the area behind the LN tailcode still in FS30219.

There was an example of a US based test aircraft with this green but that was an experimental camouflage scheme.

This debate has been going on for years and I suspect no resolution is forthcoming unfortunately.

It definitely was NOT 34201.  I seem to remember that is the color that the Xtradecal sheet calls for on 65-0721, and having used that color before I can say that it is totally different than what ended up on 721.  The picture of the Lakenheath aircraft with 30219 behind the LN tail code IS 65-0721.  It was on the cover of one of the aviation magazines out of Britain in either late 77 or early 78.  I remember seeing it at a local hobby shop in Bellevue, Nebraska when I was stationed at Offutt AFB.  Naturally I had to buy it.  Just not sure where it is right now.

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I've seen photos of 65-0689, 65-0721 and  66-7504 in the 3-tone green scheme which have the 30219 patch behind the "LN" tailcodes, with a photo of 65-0682 that seems to show the three greens and the tailcode area masked off, whilst photos of 66-0273 show the tail in the correct 30219, giving a 4-tone finish which looks quite interesting (and one that I'll probably attempt at some point).

 

There's also a couple of photos that I've seen on 81st TFW F-4Ds ( 66-7479 and 65-0754) which show the three greens, but interestingly, the "bad" colour seems to either be flaking off badly, or the tan which covers it is flaking off. '479 seems to have had the tailcodes either masked off or reapplied over the pea green, whilst '754 shows that the tail was left in 30219.

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The magazine article was in SAM. They said it was a new 3 tone green scheme. Of course we have learnt otherwise. Give me a few minutes and I'll put some pictures up that will show what happened.

 

The new paint reacted badly to UV light at altitude:

f1311e3a-b93d-4bde-be04-6c0d6d144ed4.jpg

Repainted later:

a4782688-ff1c-4627-a25b-15210aa8d5c3.jpg

 

I have many other shots of USAFE F-4s in the dodgy paint.

A good match for the green is Citadel 'Death World Forest' from Games Workshop.

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Here's some of the pics I mentioned.

 

This one looks like it's been in the wars!

41779161330_0827814799_b.jpg

 

Note the 30219 tail on this one.

42682492585_7b63a1dddc_b.jpg

 

'721. On other photos the pea green looks a bit more like 34201 than on this one.

28699327507_6ce6486055_b.jpg

 

Showing the masked off are around the tailcodes....

43587244961_e9e4e7f57e_b.jpg

 

'721 in a lineup, showing just how much the colour stands out.

29716565758_c3c9ae1fd1_b.jpg

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

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We have a club member who is/was an airframe painter for USAFE at Mildenhall. If he is at club night tomorrow, I will see if he has more info.

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17 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

The magazine article was in SAM. They said it was a new 3 tone green scheme. Of course we have learnt otherwise. Give me a few minutes and I'll put some pictures up that will show what happened.

It wasn't SAM.  This pre-dated SAM and it was on the cover.  Did a quick check on some of the magazines I have close to hand and don't see it.  It may have been a general interest aviation magazine because they also had an article about RAF Woodbridge in it to include a picture, if I remember correctly, of 65-0736 in it, which was a 78th TFS bird, and a real dog of an aircraft at that.  Don't even ask me about that POS.  It was also in the boneyard when I took my picture of 65-0721, which also had 75-0667 behind it.  667 was one of the few aircraft at Woodbridge that did not have the wing patch on it.  It therefor became my first 81st TFW Phantom subject using an old Revell F-4D kit (we're talking mid 70s here).

Later,

Dave

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3 hours ago, e8n2 said:

It wasn't SAM.  This pre-dated SAM and it was on the cover.  Did a quick check on some of the magazines I have close to hand and don't see it.  It may have been a general interest aviation magazine because they also had an article about RAF Woodbridge in it to include a picture, if I remember correctly, of 65-0736 in it, which was a 78th TFS bird, and a real dog of an aircraft at that.  Don't even ask me about that POS.  It was also in the boneyard when I took my picture of 65-0721, which also had 75-0667 behind it.  667 was one of the few aircraft at Woodbridge that did not have the wing patch on it.  It therefor became my first 81st TFW Phantom subject using an old Revell F-4D kit (we're talking mid 70s here).

Later,

Dave

May have been Air Pictorial then. Only two mags I took at that time.

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On 7/23/2018 at 6:46 AM, e8n2 said:

It definitely was NOT 34201.  I seem to remember that is the color that the Xtradecal sheet calls for on 65-0721, and having used that color before I can say that it is totally different than what ended up on 721.  The picture of the Lakenheath aircraft with 30219 behind the LN tail code IS 65-0721.  It was on the cover of one of the aviation magazines out of Britain in either late 77 or early 78.  I remember seeing it at a local hobby shop in Bellevue, Nebraska when I was stationed at Offutt AFB.  Naturally I had to buy it.  Just not sure where it is right now.

Airextra no 15, USAFE special. I bought a second hand copy a couple years back. It was the quarterly supplement to Aircraft Illustrated. There's no date on it but the content is all mid-late 70's.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIREXTRA-MAGAZINE-15-B25-MITCHELL-WALTER-MAHURIN-THUNDERBOLT-PILOT-WOLFHOUND/163063189688?hash=item25f752d0b8%3Ag%3AaFoAAMXQvJVRQa9L&_nkw=airextra+&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313.TR3.TRC0.A0.H0.Xairextra.TRS0&redirect=mobile

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15 hours ago, Gary C said:

Airextra no 15, USAFE special. I bought a second hand copy a couple years back. It was the quarterly supplement to Aircraft Illustrated. There's no date on it but the content is all mid-late 70's.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIREXTRA-MAGAZINE-15-B25-MITCHELL-WALTER-MAHURIN-THUNDERBOLT-PILOT-WOLFHOUND/163063189688?hash=item25f752d0b8%3Ag%3AaFoAAMXQvJVRQa9L&_nkw=airextra+&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313.TR3.TRC0.A0.H0.Xairextra.TRS0&redirect=mobile

THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!  Wish I could find the darn thing again.  I don't think it got tossed in all the moving around I've done of the past 40 years!  Grand Senora Desert sounds like it's in Arizona somewhere.  Spent 18 months at Luke AFB in 79-80.

Later,

Dave

 

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I recall that back when monthly aviation magazines were the only references available to many of us thinking that the 'three green' scheme

was a new adaptation of the South East Asia scheme for the European theatre, in much the same way as the Euro 1 scheme that was introduced later.

There were various theories that the tan was replaced by the SIOP green then applied to the B-52G and H fleet.

 

However, Dana Bell, the Smithsonian researcher and generally accepted authority on US service colours has confirmed on multiple occasions that no

'official' colour was used, and it was indeed a batch of faulty 30219 tan that worked its way through the fleet. That being said, it's still a scheme that showed

up for a time and as such is valid as a conversation piece if not an official scheme.

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There is a starboard side shot of 65-0689 in the 1976 RAF Yearbook (p23) too. The colour change was also mentioned in an Airfix Magazine around the time of the first appearance.  They suggested the long defunct Humbrol 36 (iirc) as a 'match'. Things were simpler in those days! I would go and find which edition but it's in the loft and that's a no-go area at the moment. 

I eventually tracked a tin down in the mid 80s in a model shop in Sunderland and put it on a Fujimi F-4D: my first taste of 'modern' Japanese aircraft kits.

 

Edit: I had to go in the loft to get something else :( but grabbed a handful of magazines and fled. Airfix Magazine November 1975, p136 report on the St Mawgan Open Day with black and white photo of 65-0689 and letter from Ian Dewar p178-9.

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8 hours ago, G-Marcat (Italy) said:

43078622875_cd591a0fc0_c.jpg

These two photos really make it look like the bad batch of 30219 went to something very close to Sky type S.  The one time I did 65-0751 before I did use Sky for the bad 30219.  At least to my old eyes it looks like a decent match.

Later,

Dave

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Just a reminder that the "Green" was not just restricted to Europe or Fox-4's :-

 

ecPUSFB.jpg

 

F0vRurx.jpg

 

6rXrfvw.jpg

 

atxvaU2.jpg

 

A few more Fox-4's :-

 

hPvXvLl.jpg

 

MNcbl38.jpg

 

LWxGeCL.jpg

 

nRal4iP.jpg

 

Alconbury and Lakenheath again :-

 

KA8NHfo.jpg

 

Hn0pTFx.jpg

 

3aTDIZA.jpg

 

One Suspect :-

 

8rFq863.jpg

 

Enjoy

 

Dennis

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