Hurricane Ragwing

[Devilfish]

I was wondering if anyone had a definitive answer about when the fabric covered wings on the Hurricane were replaced?

 

I know that most that went to France in 1939 were 2 bladed and rag-winged.  I also know that by the time the battle actually started on the 10th May, all had 3 blade props.  What I don't know, is if all the wings had been replaced by tin ones?

 

I'm building a complete history of 85 Sqn's aircraft, and I have built a pre-war "Munich crisis" 2 blade ragwing, but I want to build one using the decals that came with the old tool 1/48 kit.  I know from photos that this has a 3 blade prop, but can't find any decent pics of the wings...

[Dave Fleming]

The Science Museum's L1592 retained it's fabric wing into (and beyond) the Battle of Britain - even when it was repaired after being forced down in August 1940, it had a replacement fabric wing fitted from another airframe. So replacement of the fabric wings was by no means universal

Edited July 16, 2018 by Dave Fleming

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Devilfish said:

What I don't know, is if all the wings had been replaced by tin ones?

no.  Despite much being written about re winging, from what I can see,  this only happened if a plane was damaged and went for major repairs,  there was not a policy of replacement wings AFAIK.

@Dave Fleming posted as I was typing this,  one damaged wing need either a replace fabric, or two new metal wings, you could not use 1 fabric, 1 metal.Personally I suspect that very few planes had their wings replaced,  there were lost of new Hurricanes being built,  why upgrade what was then probably a weary airframe.

 

Bear in mind 600 Hurricanes had fabric wings, and many of these were lost from service use and in the Battle of France,  survivors ending up in 2nd line Squadrons and Training Units.

L1952 in the Science museum never got rewinged,. neither did L1926, which ended up in Training Command, and was in 3 sq pre war, then 312 Czech in Sep 1940, then 55 OTU (rare example of a plane with photos of all 3 stages, the 55 OTU pics are nose over and clearly show fabric wings .

see here for photos

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235039712-is-there-anything-wrong-with-the-fly-132-hurricane-i/&do=findComment&comment=3076228

 

 

12 minutes ago, Devilfish said:

I was wondering if anyone had a definitive answer about when the fabric covered wings on the Hurricane were replaced?

 

I know that most that went to France in 1939 were 2 bladed and rag-winged.  I also know that by the time the battle actually started on the 10th May, all had 3 blade props.  What I don't know, is if all the wings had been replaced by tin ones?

 

I'm building a complete history of 85 Sqn's aircraft, and I have built a pre-war "Munich crisis" 2 blade ragwing, but I want to build one using the decals that came with the old tool 1/48 kit.  I know from photos that this has a 3 blade prop, but can't find any decent pics of the wings...

 

Pretty certain that VY-G is fabric winged,  other airframes still have fabric, the photo is maybe G maybe C

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

 

this is the markings for G from the Airfix kit

note the Spitfire type DH prop, it's hard to tell, but one of the fabric wing identifiers is the landing light is a bay further inboard.

now, bear in mind the above is late 39 or early 40, and the phoney war era,  so planes usually survived until May 1940

 

this is VY-G or C in May 1940,  the small details match the plane above though

note the fabric wings, it seems the fabric paint faded, or photographed differently. but shows a clear transition on the wing.

this is either G or C

 

HTH

[Graham Boak]

Yet when a fabric winged Hurricane arrived in France at the height of the battle, it was regarded as the scraping of the bottom of the barrel.  Of the many photos of abandoned fighters taken by German personnel, I only recall one showing a 2 blade prop.  The wings are more difficult to determine.

 

Remember that aircraft did not stay on squadrons until they were lost.   After so many hours they left for an MU for a major overhaul.  Although there may have been little fighting done in the Phoney War, that doesn't mean the fighters sat on the ground doing nothing for months.  No doubt quite a few fabric winged Hurricanes went to France with the early squadrons, all suitable for modelling, but I suggest that they'd be considerably fewer by May  10th.

 

Peter Cornwell's The Battle Of France Then and Now lists large numbers of Lxxxx serial Hurricanes recorded in France.  Picking one day at random, on May 19th 85 Sq lost three Pxxxx Hurricanes and N2601.  Yet 111Sq lost four Lxxxx Hurricanes, proving that they were still around.

 

More detailed analysis of his work, linked to the Air Britain serial books would doubtless help.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Graham Boak
111 Sq lost L serial not P serial aircraft, thus making sense of the rest of the sentence!

[Graham Boak]

Quick look: Cornwell lists some 110 L series Hurricanes from the range generally regarded as being fabric-winged in production.  Sources do differ as to the changeover serial (L2027?), but yes those four 111 Sq aircraft mentioned above do fall before the change.  If you happen to believe that there were early N series Hurricanes with fabric wings, then some 30 of those also appeared in France, but N2601 was metal wing.  There were indeed "quite a few".

 

The aircraft record cards in the National Archives will tell you which ones of these came back, and when.  For 85 Sq, look up the serials in the Air Britain books first, to reduce the job to a more manageable size.  Those that didn't later serve elsewhere were presumably among some 150 Hurricanes lost In France.  The 85 Sq Operational Record Book for the period may prove helpful (if it survived) but may not.

[Devilfish]

Thanks for that. Very informative!!

 

Having read Paul Richey's book about the Battle of France (Fighter Pilot?), he states that aircraft were sent back to the UK and returned (or were swapped for aircraft) with 3 blade props, but doesn't mention the wings.

 

I suppose it makes sense that they weren't replaced.  I just have seen various programs that mention replacing the fabric wings with metal ones. 

 

My first thought was to do VY-G as a fabric wing, and I'll probably stick with that.  Unfortunately, it doesn't carry a serial, so I can't even say if it was an L or N series serial...

[Graham Boak]

The finflash and the yellow ring on the lower photos point to after May 1st 1940, though quite why the spinner has changed colour I can't say.  I'd also look for a larger/better reproduction of the first photo before being definite about the serial, as early Hurricanes has smaller size serials.  Which were often overpainted, yes.

 

In the third photo, the oil stain on the leg cover is a nice touch for modellers.  Think how mucky the belly must be.

 

I suspect that the phrase "replaced by metal ones" may have originally applied to the production in principle, rather than implying a specific programme to re-wing early production aircraft.  Yes such replacements did happen, and indeed had to become the norm when the spare fabric-covered wings ran out.  It is perhaps an interesting question about what happened later as part of the massive 1940 rework programme for damaged/crashed fighters.  Wings would go one route for repair, and fuselages another.  What the fuselage (carrying the aircraft identity) ended up with was whatever wing was next available, not what it came in with.  Yet would fabric-covered wings go the same route?  I strongly suspect that any fighter that came out of an MU with fabric-covered wings went to the back of the line for squadrons or straight to an OTU.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

though quite why the spinner has changed colour I can't say.

in a rush, but been discussed before, 85 sq seems to have used flight coloured spinners in the may to july 1940 period, see the photos from castle camps in july 1940 for other examples,  see the link I posted above, but I think I did a specific thread on this.