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49 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

There is a question that is bothering me: there is Ju 87 G-2 in Hendon and I wonder if anybody of museum staff or, even better, one of us modellers measured her yet? Cheers

Jure

Hi Jure

A chap at my local club did measure the Hendon Stuka for Hasegawa, I'll ask him about this.   I don't have a Hase 48th kit to hand, but I have various versions stashed, they use the same base fuselage with different noses, so I'll check when I get chance.

Cheers

T

 

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6 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Found something, no idea how accurate it is - this page gives 1745mm for the 211D-1 and 2172.5 for the J-2 - the difference if correct is hence 427.5mm or 16.83 inches, or 1 foot 4 5/6.

But the original Jumo 211B/D Handbuch gives 1745mm as Lange ohne Nabe while the Jumo211F/J Handbuch gives 2172,5mm as Grosstmasse :  

j24.jpg

Thus the engine blocks are the same as is even the reduction gear casing - the difference is hidden in MEASURING METHOD.

BTW the 211F/J has much longer propeller hub and its starter motor protrudes back some 20-25cm too. j14.jpg

Moreover - while looking at the orthogonal sideview photos the B/C/R and D/G cowlings feature exactly the same lenght, so I do agree with Graham - it looks that Academy is right and Fujimi is wrong :(

Cheers

Michael

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It is a sad story to me, since some +10 years ago I was extending nose of Academy by 5 mm to get "right" (?) lenght.  But what (as I remember) convienced me that G has to short nose was lenght  of exhaust pipes. Please check it, if I remeber correctly, but as far as my memory works the G in Academy has shorted exhaust pipes comparing to B. If anybody has those models, please measure the lengts of set of exhaust pipes - they can be used as reper.

But on photo like that: 

ju87g1_4.jpg

nose is rather short...

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek  

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Hello

Michael, thank you for those information. Jerzy-Wojtek, I had been spared such futile effort by a fellow-modeller who was aware of my severe rivet-counting condition. He warned me about D-G models' length controversy in the nick of time, as I was about to start cutting the nose of 1/48 Monogram Ju 87 D-5 kit. Goose, the one kit to avoid at all costs in 1/72 is the old Heller Ju 87 B. I built one decades ago and its nose looked so boxlike and short that for a while I seriously considered converting the kit into Ju 87 A. For Berta sub-versions, I agree with the rest of the posters here and vote for new Airfix kits. Cheers

Jure

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I've got the B: it looks all right in the box but I haven't started it nor looked at it closely.

 

As I recall, there wasn't any controversy about it. it was considered equivalent to the Fujimi one and a bit better than the middle Airfix one.  I don't think that I'd have bought it otherwise.

Edited by Graham Boak
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2 hours ago, elger said:

Still curious if anyone has any thoughts on Italeri's B and D Stukas

I heve feeling (only feeling) that in Italeri Ju 87 the chord of wingtip is a bit wider then should be. I remeber that only in a modelshop I compared Academy wing and Italeri and decided to buy Academy (and them enlarged the nose lenght etc... ;) )

Regards

J-W

Edited by JWM
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Today I managed to produce some pictures - one is comparison of real bird sideviews. In my opinion the lenght difference is about 5% and concerns only the spinner.

 

43511958371_6995117e98_b.jpg

Another is comparison of the mentioned kits fuselages: 1/72 Academy and Fujimi (both Ju87G, thus identical to Ju87D). The 4mm difference in nose lenght is clearly visible. But the nose is not the only difference between them - look at the vertical fin and rudder assembly. At least one of them (maybe both) looks wrong there too :(

 

42609740875_d94447ae72_b.jpg

 

Nevertheless measuring the Hendon example should give us the definitive verdict

Cheers

Michael

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I don't know if this helps or hurts the discussion, but after reading the posts above, I went back and measured my Academy and Fujimi G-2's as well as my Fujimi D-2 and D-8 kits. I do not have either of the Italeri kits. The most commonly accepted overall length for the D and G series Stukas appears to be 37' 8"

 

The length of the fuselage sections on all of the 1/72 Ju-87 kits that I have in my stash measured identically in length, from the angled firewall to the edge of the rudder, as measured along the horizontal panel line that runs from the rear edge of the firewall to the edge of the rudder. This was for all of my kits listed above, as well as the new-tool Airfix Ju-87B-1/2, which really isn't the reason for this discussion topic.  The cowling length was measured from the base of the spinner to the angled rear edge of the firewall, as measured along the horizontal panel line that runs above the slot for the exhausts. The length of the slot for the exhausts is different between the two kits, but is located the same distance forward of the angled firewall on both, so the discrepancy is forward of that. The measurements for the Academy D-type kit should be the same as their G-2, since the only difference between the two would be the armament fit.

 

kit                         overall length    cowling section length   exhaust slot length

Academy G-2       35' 6"                 5' 9"                                3' 6"

Fujimi G-2            37' 3"                 7'                                    4' 3" 

 

The Academy cowling overall length is 15" shorter than the Fujimi cowling, which is very close to the 15.5" published difference in length between the earlier Jumo 211's and the 211J, for what that's worth.

 

Short of measuring the Hendon Ju-87G and the Ju-87B-2 in Chicago, this is about as far as my references and knowledge takes me; hopefully this will help. Now I'm off to work on an FS equivalent for that RLM P @tempestfan quoted for the Ju-87 relief tube!

Mike

 

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25 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

The length of the fuselage sections on all of the 1/72 Ju-87 kits that I have in my stash measured identically in length, from the angled firewall to the edge of the rudder, as measured along the horizontal panel line that runs from the rear edge of the firewall to the edge of the rudder. This was for all of my kits listed above, as well as the new-tool Airfix Ju-87B-1/2, which really isn't the reason for this discussion topic.  The cowling length was measured from the base of the spinner to the angled rear edge of the firewall, as measured along the horizontal panel line that runs above the slot for the exhausts. The length of the slot for the exhausts is different between the two kits, but is located the same distance forward of the angled firewall on both, so the discrepancy is forward of that. The measurements for the Academy D-type kit should be the same as their G-2, since the only difference between the two would be the armament fit.

If you have all those kits - could you please measure the lenght of set of 6 exhaust pips for all kits- this should be the same for all and if whole nose is streched or shrank the exhaust pipes probably are deformated in the same way in some proportion...

Regards

J-W

 

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38 minutes ago, JWM said:

If you have all those kits - could you please measure the lenght of set of 6 exhaust pips for all kits- this should be the same for all and if whole nose is streched or shrank the exhaust pipes probably are deformated in the same way in some proportion...

Regards

J-W

 

JWM,

 

Trudged back upstairs and the measurements you asked for are listed below. Measurements were from the front edge, including the fairing if it was a part of the exhaust, to the rear edge. Does this help?

Academy G-2            3' 6"

Fujimi G-2                 4' 3"

Fujimi D-1/D-5/D-8  4' 3"

 

Mike

 

 

Edited by 72modeler
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58 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

 

 

The Academy cowling overall length is 15" shorter than the Fujimi cowling, which is very close to the 15.5" published difference in length between the earlier Jumo 211's and the 211J, for what that's worth.

 

 

See KRK4m's post 30.  The two engines are not different in length, when the measurements are consistent.

 

Yes, the most commonly quoted length of the D/G is 37 ft 8 inches.  But the whole point of this discussion is that there is no supporting evidence for this and some evidence that it is wrong.  In particular, German sources quoting the dimensions using the original metric system.  (Having seen the D/G quoted as being the same length of the B at 11m (which is wrong because the spinner of the D is longer - and also at 11.1m,  I must admit wondering if a real measurement of 11.08m has somewhere become 11.8m before conversion for English language sources.  Just an idea ...)

 

I'm afraid we can measure the kits for all we are worth and it will only show that they are based on different sources.  Having said that I quite like the suggestion of comparing the exhausts - especially as it seems to show that the "long nose" D kits are exaggerating this (at least the Fujimi ones).  Only quite, however.

 

Re JWM's post 39, the two side views.  Although superficially convincing, the two photographs are not taken from identical positions - look at the position of the wingtip compared to the windscreen.  Nor do we know how far the photographer was from the aircraft.  Both of these factors will produce distortions.  In particular the extremes of the aircraft , nose and tail, will be foreshortened.  Because of the position of the camera aft of the wing on the D photo, the nose of the D will be more foreshortened than that of the B.  Just how much so I can't say - and neither can anyone else from the available information - but it will have happened.

 

As far as the nose is concerned, D = G.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

See KRK4m's post 30.  The two engines are not different in length, when the measurements are consistent.

 

Yes, the most commonly quoted length of the D/G is 37 ft 8 inches.  But the whole point of this discussion is that there is no supporting evidence for this and some evidence that it is wrong.  In particular, German sources quoting the dimensions using the original metric system.  (Having seen the D/G quoted as being the same length of the B at 11m (which is wrong because the spinner of the D is longer - and also at 11.1m,  I must admit wondering if a real measurement of 11.08m has somewhere become 11.8m before conversion for English language sources.  Just an idea ...)

 

I'm afraid we can measure the kits for all we are worth and it will only show that they are based on different sources.  Having said that I quite like the suggestion of comparing the exhausts - especially as it seems to show that the "long nose" D kits are exaggerating this (at least the Fujimi ones).  Only quite, however.

 

Re JWM's post 39, the two side views.  Although superficially convincing, the two photographs are not taken from identical positions - look at the position of the wingtip compared to the windscreen.  Nor do we know how far the photographer was from the aircraft.  Both of these factors will produce distortions.  In particular the extremes of the aircraft , nose and tail, will be foreshortened.  Because of the position of the camera aft of the wing on the D photo, the nose of the D will be more foreshortened than that of the B.  Just how much so I can't say - and neither can anyone else from the available information - but it will have happened.

 

As far as the nose is concerned, D = G.

I never said the Jumo 211D and 211J were the same length, but that the addition of the intercooler in the 211J made it 15.5" longer, which was in the written source I quoted in  my post. I guess my post was unclear- for that I apologize.  I've exhausted what I know or have been able to find, and don't wish to add to this topic discussion unless I can find better source material, so guess I will stand by until someone can measure the Hendon Ju-87G. I would suggest the length of the spinner, cowling, exhaust, fuselage length and the chord of the fin and rudder would be most useful in answering the questions posed by everybody on this topic.

Mike

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I‘d expect the Aeromodeller drawings - as reprinted in Aircraft Archive - to be based on measurements of the Hendon then probably still St Athans machine. As I said above, measurement of the drawings suggest they intend to portray a length of 1100mm (but I haven’t cross checked the span with data quoted elsewhere), while the accompanying data added by the editorial team of Aircraft Archive (I assume) gives 1150. 

In any case, the exhausts likely should be the same length for B and D, as the addition/modification of ancillary equipment would leave the basic block unaffected. So one or other (or both...) of the Academy and Fujimi are incorrect in this respect.

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The Spitfire was no longer because of the addition of an intercooler, as opposed to the growth due to the second stage supercharger which meant an intercooler was needed.  I don't know why the Jumo 211J needed an intercooler but the nacelle of the Ju88 was no longer after one was added.  So why should the Ju87 go Pinocchio?  When considering that this amount of growth isn't visible in the photos, I think it safe to consider the intercooler irrelevant.

 

The Aeromodeller plans length is interesting, but does need checking against the possibility of distortion.  I'd have more confidence in the original publication rather than this reprint.  Do we know who drew the plans?  If A L Bentley then he can be consulted.

 

As a warning, the Aeromodeller plans of the Bf110G were based on the actual example at St. Athan as it was being prepared for the RAF Museum.  The engine cowlings were detached.  It turned out that these had been made up in the workshops and didn't fit, so the drawings were wrong and so was the resulting Frog model.

 

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29 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Do we know who drew the plans?  If A L Bentley then he can be consulted.

 

 

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:19 PM, tempestfan said:

They should have consulted Mr McHard who probably took tape to Hendon...

Edit: Had a quick google which confirmed my feeling that Luftfahrt International covered the Ju 87 in some depth in issues 21 to 23. I should have those easily accessible at home and will have a look. Maybe this is of help as much of that Mag's contents came directly from official oublications like service  manuals. However, I'd expect Eddie Creek to have access to such primary source material, and his Classic title is quoted to have the 1150 length. Let's see...

Edited by tempestfan
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12 hours ago, 72modeler said:

JWM,

 

Trudged back upstairs and the measurements you asked for are listed below. Measurements were from the front edge, including the fairing if it was a part of the exhaust, to the rear edge. Does this help?

Academy G-2            3' 6"

Fujimi G-2                 4' 3"

Fujimi D-1/D-5/D-8  4' 3"

 

Mike

Mike, thanks! - so this is obvious that Academy has shorter exhausts than Fujimy. The clue is to compare them with lenght of that for B variant, for exampke the Airfix one as the lidar  scaned mould. I think that lenght for B and G/D should be the same in real Stuka since block of engine was the same I think in all variants of 211.

Cheers

J-W

 

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