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Olivier de St Raph

Ford Mustang 1964 1/2 Convertible 1/16 from the Coupe AMT kit: the Indy 500 Pace Car

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A tip with the BS and the GS: the 2 components (base and catalyst) are nearly in contact in the box, and, when cutting small portions, they can easily contact each other, causing a premature hardening.

 

u1Osve.png

 

 

MmKLKr.jpg

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LGeIJX.jpg

 

On the other hand, even if my backseat is getting a little better, I am still not very glad with the beads, that definitely caused me a big fuss... I have applied a coat of Tamiya Surface Primer (airbrush) to enhance the remaining defects, and after that, I have filled some gaps with the Vallejo Plastic Putty. For this very visible part, I must still improve the result, what will still require patience and time...

Jmzw1A.jpg

 

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Olivier, Sorry the seat is causing so much extra work.

I had a Mustang in the sixties, sadly didn't keep it,  and I remember the horizontal pleats being very shallow in depth.

Perhaps some diluted Vallejo plastic putty can lessen the gap and add some roundness.

You are really doing some outstanding work!

It's too late now, but I've had success in moderately shaping plastic by putting it in hot, but not boiling, water and forming and holding the desired shape it until it cools down. Very good for correcting warping as well.

Have you thought of using some stiffened fabric thread or fine fishing line for the beading?

Really enjoy viewing your posts.

Les

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Thanks a lot, Les, for your contribution and for your kind words, that sounds like encouragements while I have to fight to get a convincing backseat. I know I have to improve the pleats (among others...) and your hint will be useful. I must say I regret not having period photos (close-up) of the seats.

About the technique using hot water for shaping plastic, it is certainly much better than the method I used, but as soon as the polystyren turns soft, it is imho difficult to avoid undesired distorsion, especially for a quite complex part such the backseat. I think the best way to modify the shape is just to add (or remove) material. If I had to redo this step, I would add some BS/GS to get a bulged shape...

Very happy if you enjoy viewing my posts, despite the misery that this build occurs.

 

Olivier

 

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The reality is that the car had rear seats that were relatively flat compared to the fronts.

It was a moderately priced car and refinements in suspension and creature comforts were minimal compared to today's similarly positioned cars.

I wouldn't overdo the bulges.

Les

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Dear Les,

The fact that you had a Mustang in the sixteen makes you a very important witness for my build. If I understand well, you suggest that the backseat on restored versions on which I settle are not faithful at all to the original (see mainly the pics in my posts# 310, 329 and 371) and that maybe the AMT version would finally not be so wrong on this precise point (post# 310) with a flat or even slightly concave shape (while it is convex on the restored cars) and nearly flat bulges. Maybe even there were no seams as we know the seats were not leather but vinyl...

a6bgQ5.jpg

 

It is possible indeed, but sorry, I am Thomas, I believe what I see. And up to now, surprisingly, I couldn't get any good  period pic that would confirm your memories. I am sure such pics exist, the problem is to find them. I have ordered (one of my Christmas gifts) another book (the 3rd on the matter...): "Ford Mustang: la première Pony car" (ETAI ed.). I hope I will find something  there...

Another gift I will get on that occasion will be an entry level 3D printer that had good grades on the net. It is made in China and so it seems to have a good value for money. This new tool should also have occasionally indications for my pro work. But I am not familiar at all with 3D printing, and I will probably have to learn a lot before being able to get fine results... Will this new experience be a hit? I really have no idea about that, but I thought I couldn't ignore longer this new approach.

Here is the model I ordered on Amazon (the price was initially 319€ one year ago when the 3Dnatives lab made tests on it).

ZbTyop.png

 

Of course, I will not fail to share my experience with this tool in this thread, as I regularly do, at the risk of getting a very heavy (and I hope not too indigestible ;)) thread...

 

Olivier

 

P.S: of course, if it turns out that the AMT backseat is quite faithful to the original, I would use the one of my second kit. I would have though to modify the angle on the lower part, as I did on the first one, but it would be definitely a good new for me, who had so much trouble with these beads and pleats...

 

 

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After Les comments, I made new researchs on the net and I could find this period pic (I had it only in B/W and not so good resolution up to now, found on the first Mustang book I bought), showing partially the seats:

8cDDus.jpg

 

Close-up:

RRwenT.png

 

Even if this is a car of pre-series, we may suppose that the shape was nearly the same on versions that came of the line 2 or 3 months later...

 

Conclusion: waiting for new docs to confirm this one,

1) I will remove the tin wires

2) I will modify the too rounded top here:

9CqEQv.jpg

3) I will try to improve the beads and pleats, but won't use the AMT backseat. It is possible that with the time, the bulges on the Les Mustang has lost some relief, becoming nearly flat. But I represent an all new car, and I have good reasons to consider that the beads were quite bulged (even if less than on the front seats, indeed)

4) I will add some slight folds, as we can see on this pic

5) I will have a lot of work on the front seats too...

 

Of course, any new contribution (thanks again Les) will be welcome!

 

Olivier

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Hi Olivier,

                    See here: Link

These aren't period photos but they're very similar to your references and maybe as good as you'll get. Most of todays cars will have been re-trimmed and repainted I'm afraid so you have to make a "best guess" or you'll never finish.

 

Dave

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Hi Olivier,

 

Looking at your last picture I thought I noticed the right seat (=left one in the picture) is narrower than the left one. Although it can be a photographic thing I encourage you to measure this yourself, on the real model, to be sure.

 

Here are my findings. Right rear seat (on the photo: the left one): 273 pixels wide, left rear seat (on the photo: right one) 296 pixels wide. 

 

44425106990_3544f96b0b_h.jpg

 

If the right seat were also 296 pixels wide, this is where the blue guideline would be:

 

31303138237_725c42b612_h.jpg

 

Beside that, the curvature of the tunnel cover is not symmetrical and the grooves in the seats are not parallel to one another. 

 

I would never make these comments (that I don't want to make because I don't want to hurt your feelings) if the quality level of the rest of this model were not so very high. To me it would be a shame if you used those splendid wheelcaps and these rear seats in one and the same model. I'm sure by thinking out of the box you could find a way to make a more symmetrical and smooth solution for these seats... 

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This is a restored 1964 pace car, 1 of 185 (copyright and link here: https://www.rkmotors.com/vehicles/909/1964-ford-mustang-pace-car

1964-ford-mustang-pace-car

 

1964-ford-mustang-pace-car 

 

As regards photos of the original... as with the Fiat 806 it seems none of the convertible cars have survived, so it's going to be a matter of luck and/or good searching. 

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One thing to ask yourself though... what would be the structural differences between the 1964 pace car and a regular 1964 convertible? 

 

Compare: 

 

JTziMQ.jpg&key=d2f7961415d38098b4592c915 

46191858082_01810103e7_h.jpg 

 

My guess would be that these are really very similar. Why would Ford install redesigned rear seats for just a few convertible cars to be built, if the regular convertible seats were designed to their utmost? Especially if the rear seats were not even used during during a Pace Car session? On the pictures above they look much alike and I strongly think they were identical. 

 

So, searching for '1964 mustang convertible unrestored' I found this video... unfortunately it doesn't show much but it does show some guidelines: 

 

  

 

From 2:20 the plastic covering the rear seats is partially put aside. 

 

32370199348_bf2be3e135_k.jpg 

46191953112_4a5447820c_k.jpg 

Also I would say that even the restored examples will usually strongly resemble the original car. 'Upgrading' or 'pimping' a vintage Ford Mustang is not nearly as well-accepted as with other cars. The same applies in the Chevrolet Corvette scene for example. Pimping is often frowned upon (of course there are exceptions). What you could do is search for restored 1964 convertible Mustang cars. After you found three cars with rear seats that all look the same, you know you found more or less what the originals would have looked like. And, in my opinion, also what the 1964 convertible pace car would have looked like. 

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There's also this: Link

 

The colour of the car is referred to as "Fleet White".  Note: It appears to have squared off armrests and ashtrays plus the two way radio.

Dave

Edited by Fastcat
Doh

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Olivier,

The seat did not get concave.

The center backrest was quite flat,.but the center bottom was moved because of the tunnel.

The diagonal seam does exist and it does have small piping where the pleats meet the solid vinyl section.

As you can see in photos, the tuck under is correct at the bottom where it meets with the floor.

I'm sure you can work with what you have built so far.

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On 09/12/2018 at 12:25, Roy vd M. said:

Although it can be a photographic thing I encourage you to measure this yourself, on the real model, to be sure.

Hi Roy,

I just checked and the 2 seats are the same width or nearly so in reality, while curiously, the left one (right on the photo) is indeed a bit narrower on the photo. I don't understand why we have such a difference, but I confirm that point.

On 09/12/2018 at 12:25, Roy vd M. said:

the curvature of the tunnel cover is not symmetrical and the grooves in the seats are not parallel to one another. 

the curvature of the tunnel cover will still evolve as this is just a dry fit assembly, I will take care it to be symmetrical at the end. 

On the other hand, I am more in trouble with the beads and grooves, definitely not acceptable as they are.

On 09/12/2018 at 12:25, Roy vd M. said:

I'm sure by thinking out of the box you could find a way to make a more symmetrical and smooth solution for these seats... 

I don't understand what you mean there, can you precise please? The OOB option here would mean using the AMT backseat as it is, no? 

Thanks a lot for this great video, I had not the idea to type "unrestored". I made several screen captures. I agree with you, imho this video confirms that the restored versions are quite faithful. And I noticed that the ridges that seem to be missing on the pre-serie (the pic in my post# 376 above) are indisputably  present on this 1964 1/2 Mustang. But I think my tin wire was a bit too wide to represent them, 0,3 mm would be better.

Agree with you too about the fact that the Pace car versions had very certainly the same seats than regular convertibles.

Thanks too, Dave, for this link of a restored version, and Les for these new precisions.

 

Olivier

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Among the many interesting details I could notice on Roy's video (Roy was a great "finder" in the "Fiat 806 research..." thread), there is the one below:

FeZXfV.png

 

umN7y6.jpg

 

A new step forward towards the truth...  

 

But pity, this video doesn't show the central basis...

But imho one thing is sure: my backrest, made from the AMT part, is a bit too wide:

yEkkqz.png

 

and I am quite sure the central basis too (what all restored pics suggest)...

 

Well, I am not out of my way. I wonder if the 3D printer could save me from this...

Do some of you have an experience of 3D printing for modeling?

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Hi Olivier,

                        There is almost always a gap between the side trim and the seat cushion because they are two separate pieces. It's usually a smaller gap when the car is new but as the upholstery ages (as the rather worn example in Roy's photo) it's more obvious. Most kit-makers would mould this in one piece in the smaller scales because it's cheaper but in larger scales the seat cushion really needs to be separate.

You were right to represent the gap.

 

Dave

PS Things nearer the camera appear bigger on the photo. If you look at an earlier photo, taken from the other side of the car, again the nearer backrest and seat appears bigger. They are both the same size.

Edited by Fastcat

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I have decided I wouldn't go on working on my backseat until I can get precise dimensions of the different portions forming it. I don't know yet if I will go on with the one I modified (the most probable) or if I will redo completely the job from my second backseat, but what I know is that I was wrong trusting on AMT regarding the shape and dimensions of the cushions. They did not only need to be bulged, their shape was wrong:

1) I am quite sure (but it is to confirm) that the cushions should be wider

2) I am quite sure (but it must be confirmed too) that the central backrest has a slightly trapezoid shape, which means that the cushions limit is not vertical

3) I think that the central basis between the cushions should be narrower

4) I think (to confirm too...) that my sittings are too flat, there should be a slope, especially on an all new Mustang like the Indy 500 the day of the race.

 

I couldn't use Bernard's measures for this backseat because he has got the further Pony seats. But I will find another way to get these measures. I think there is someone who has got a 1965 Convertible in the village where I work. It is a first path. If it doesn't work, I will contact the Mustang Club de France... 

Sorry, but I can't go on like this, in a haze of uncertainty.

Furthermore, it is obvious that I will have to be very rigorous regarding the beads, that must be very regular. It doesn't look like that, but it is very difficult to get something convincing with them.

 

Cheers to all, thanks for helping.

 

Olivier

32aHaI.png

 

 

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Strong but necessary decisions - I am not talking about the French President ones ;) -

 

m55RLh.jpg

 

OKjoZ3.jpg

 

Waiting for the precisions (I am very determined to get them), I will work on other aspects of my build. 

 

P.S: here is the mail I just sent to the Mustang Club de France (in french, sorry...):

 

St Raphaël le 11/12/2018

 

Madame, Monsieur,

 

maquettiste passionné et exigeant, je me suis attelé depuis le 11 juillet dernier, à la réalisation d’une réplique la plus fidèle possible, au 1/16, de la Ford Mustang 1964 1/2 cabriolet qui a servi de Pace Car lors de la course d’Indianapolis en mai 1964. Je n’ai pas le bonheur de posséder une Ford Mustang de cette époque, mais j’ai pu bénéficier de l’aide précieuse du père d’une amie, qui en possède une (de 1965). Cependant, il y a des mesures et des précisions qu’il n’a pu m’apporter, notamment concernant la banquette arrière, car lui dispose de la sellerie « Pony », alors que la version que je représente, l’Indy 500, disposait de la sellerie classique. Si un membre de votre club pouvait réaliser certaines mesures et quelques photos de cette banquette arrière pour moi , je lui en serais infiniment reconnaissant. Afin de vous permettre, si vous le souhaitez, de vous faire une idée de l’avancée de mon travail, je vous mets en lien vers le forum (en anglais, désolé) sur lequel on peut suivre la progression de mon travail: Ford Mustang 1964 1/2 Convertible 1/16 from the Coupe AMT kit: the ...https://www.britmodeller.com › ... › Work In Progress - Vehicles

 

En espérant que vous voudrez bien répondre à ma requête, je vous prie d’agréer, Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs.

 

Olivier Pansieri

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I need a hint or a reference. I explain:

to represent the beads as well as possible, I had ordered (my post# 330) and used (my post# 343) the ref. 242 from Evergreen (half round 2 mm width). But of course, the beads don't have a half round shape, but a much more flat one. So, I had to decrease the rounded shape of my Evergreen rods, using mainly a triangular blade. This method takes time and, despite efforts, doesn't allow to get very regular in shape beads.

WtWvWf.jpg

Do you know if another maker provides such approximately the desired shape in 2 mm width? Or do you have a suggestion to get nearly similar beads? I thought maybe I could use - when I get it - my all new 3D printer. So, I would make one bead as smooth and lovely as possible, before reproducing it about 44 times (approximately the number of beads for the whole backseat). Possible?

Thanks in advance for your opinions, suggestions, ideas on the matter...

Olivier

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If I have the opportunity to get precise measures for the rear seats, it would be a pity to forget checking the front ones:

GwQXm7.png

 

11ViQt.jpg

 

N.B: of course, as appropriate, I could ask Bernard about the outside measures of the front and rear seats, as the Pony seats had very certainly the same ones.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Do you know if another maker provides such approximately the desired shape in 2 mm width? Or do you have a suggestion to get nearly similar beads? I thought maybe I could use - when I get it - my all new 3D printer. So, I would make one bead as smooth and lovely as possible, before reproducing it about 44 times (approximately the number of beads for the whole backseat). Possible?

Thanks in advance for your opinions, suggestions, ideas on the matter...

Olivier

Maybe you could take a slab of clay, make an indentation with your 2mm beads up to the desired depth, thus creating a mold. Then fill with some type of resin. 

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Olivier,

How about using a woodworking plane on the strips of half round to knock off the dome.

Glue something to the plate of the plane that raises the blade to the thickness needed for the finished piece.

You will get consistent depth that way.

Then knock off the edges to get some roundness - use a file or sanding block.

It might also be easier to start with a thick piece of plastic strip and just round off the edges.

Work with the strips intact - easier to handle and results will be more consistent.

Les

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13 hours ago, Lvp said:

It might also be easier to start with a thick piece of plastic strip and just round off the edges.

Thanks Jeroen and Les for your suggestions. I had myself thought I could use a rectangular strip (ref. 124 from Evergreen, 0,5 mm x 2 mm). I will try... But I will wait to get my 3D printer (soon) to go further with these beads, as maybe (I hope so) it will bee the best way to get totally similar beads...

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Waiting for precise measures for the seats, as I said above, I go on with other aspects of my build:

8iZEDk.jpg

 

But, waiting also for the 3D printer I ordered and will get soon, I have decided to install and begin learning how to use Fusion 360, on Roy's recommendation (see his great Delage thread here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiVhMGI5ZrfAhUSxIUKHfhwB-EQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britmodeller.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3F%2Ftopic%2F235014899-delage-15-s-8-grand-prix-18%2F%26do%3DfindComment%26comment%3D2845135&usg=AOvVaw1nThNdONBSjK1DaNl0CJ9U), a software that will allow to draw parts in 3D, in order to print them in 3D with the printer. 

All this a very new for me, and I have to follow a learning curve, using the tutos available on You Tube (I prefer tutos in french, for easy to understand reasons).

That's why my build will go on still a bit slower in the next days (or weeks...), the time for me to get a bit more familiar with these new approaches in model making. 

Of course, I remain a fan of scratch building using our hands, but I think we can't ignore longer the possibility that these high tech approaches offer. 

The cost of a 3D printer has become really reasonable, and the Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists (thanks Roy for the infos). 

There are other softwares, such Blender, free too, but I will trust Roy and will try first Fusion (you have to start with something)...

In the case of the Mustang Convertible at 1/16, if you consider all the wrong parts of the AMT kit, and if you consider too that there is nearly nothing available at such a scale for such a model in aftermarket makers (try to find windscreen wipers at 1/16!), it is easy to imagine the perspective that such tools can offer. Will I be able to take advantage of these new tools to get more easily a convincing and faithful build, that is the question...

But the one who doesn't try is sure not to succeed...

 

Olivier

 

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