Ford Mustang 1964 1/2 Convertible 1/16 from the Coupe AMT kit: the Indy 500 Pace Car

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hi Thierry 

 

Thanks a lot for your contribution.

First by making me earn time about the ZP thinning.

Then by suggesting the Pledge option.

It would be funny that, after having tried with more or less success more or less expensive Clear Coats supposed to be great results on our models, the best one was finally the Pledge!!

Do we find this product in France (Klir?)

I will go watching the Barbatos Rex video about this product.

And I will certainly do trials with the latter.

Keep us informed of your own experience with it, please.

 

Cheers, O

[CrazyCrank]

3 hours ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

Hi Thierry 

 

Thanks a lot for your contribution.

First by making me earn time about the ZP thinning.

Then by suggesting the Pledge option.

It would be funny that, after having tried with more or less success more or less expensive Clear Coats supposed to be great results on our models, the best one was finally the Pledge!!

Do we find this product in France (Klir?)

I will go watching the Barbatos Rex video about this product.

And I will certainly do trials with the latter.

Keep us informed of your own experience with it, please.

 

Cheers, O

Evening Olivier

Klir is not the right stuff

the good one is Johnson’s Pledge Floor Gloss (Revival)

you can order it on Amazon UK but it’ll cost you quite an arm. 
I ‘ve purchased it in Canada where I stayed for 2 months and brought it back in my luggage 

[Pouln]

This how I did it. 

Varnish/ hardener mixed 3:1 and I then add the same amount (4 parts) thinner. 

Pressure was set at about 2 bar. Distance some 10-15cm.

 AK instructions say yo wait 15 minutes between layers. I think I did comply or maybe a bit under that, say 13 minutes.

If I it turns out sanding is needed I make sure that the gloss layer is thick enough, otherwise you run the risk to sand right through it (that’s the reason for the 3 layers).

If you look at the second picture in the June post, you can see that the spare wheel well does have a bit uneven surface. I left that as it was, no treatment at all in between layers or after.

 

Funny you mention a degree of grain in the first picture. That actually is the grain of the carton box that is reflected in the gloss. If you look at the reflected edges of the box, you see that the surface is not totally flat, but, you know, the camera shows much more defects than the naked eye will see.
 

you asked:

Now another question about the technique you used with your (great) 1/8 Alfa: you said that you applied at least 3 layers and only then did the sanding job, that's right? I suppose the the successive layers were more and more grainy, if you didn't sand between each one, no? And by applying so many coats, didn't you lose a bit details?

 

No I haven’t experienced any loss of detail. I think it has to do with the amount of thinning I did and this is 1:8 scale, which helps too. 
Thinning it this much brings the risk of other defects like runners (I think they are called in English).

I had one or two, but I found that you can sand these flat and polish that part without leaving any trace.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot Thierry and Poul, and sorry Poul if I was wrong thinking the state of surface on the first pic was due to the AK 2K coats, while it is the reflected box that is grainy.

On my side, I must say I had big problems with my GX 112 and even much more with my MrSC on the trunk: just after applying them (especially the MrSC), awful cracks appeared very quickly, that even increased with setting.

I wondered why I had that while the first trials on the doors were fine.

Maybe the very wet weather (rain all day yesterday while it was dry the day before). This would mean that even with my dehumidifier (the humidity level is correct in my garage), I should avoid spraying these wet days.

But I don't think it is enough to explain such fails. The main reason is imho elsewhere: I don't apply any primer to avoid grain and loss of detail before the coat of paint. For the same reason, I prefer to thin my acrylic WW paint with alcohol 96° rather than with X-20A (the alcohol provides imho a smoother state of surface than the X-20A).

I think the GX 112 (thinned with a leveling thinner) and the MrSC applied on this smooth alcohol thinned surface makes it crack if it is applied in medium coat. And probably the wet weather, in this context, doesn't make things better.

Here are the decisions I take now to avoid this problem, after having removed the cracks by sanding the whole 2nd kit trunk and applied yesterday night a new coat of WW thinned with alcohol: the MrSC is abandoned, because it is difficult, with a can, to control the thickness of the first coat.

With the GX 112, I will first apply a very light coat first (tack coat) and will wait a while (at least 1h) before applying a new one.

The H30 will be sprayed normally, as it doesn't seem to cause cracking problems.

Now if there are still little cracks with the GX 112, why not apply the latter over the H30?

Why would I do that, rather than just use the H30? Just because I feel that the shine is a little better with the GX 112 than with the H30.

The H30 would be used to avoid the direct contact WW alcohol thinned and the GX112, and the latter applied then (probably 2 coats) would provide the expected nice shine. If possible, no sanding at all but just a final buffing…

All that sounds not very clear, maybe...

Well, we shall see the results...

Here is, in the meantime, the trunk with the 2 finalists applied 30 mn ago:

 

 

To be followed: new coats of each product will be applied in a little while...

 

1 h later: a medium coat of GX112 has been applied on the whole trunk:

 

 

N.B:

- I will apply another GX112 coat in a while before the post processing job, to be sure the latter will not remove the GX112 coat…
- of course, I could also maybe wait to have a dry weather and apply directly the  GX112, as I did successfully on the door. Complementary trials in such conditions will be necessary to be sure I won’t have problems once I apply the Gloss coat on my build.
- it is still raining a bit outside 😉

[Pouln]

1 hour ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

sorry Poul if I was wrong thinking the state of surface on the first pic was due to the AK 2K coats

No need to apologize, I really thought your remark was a demonstration of the shininess😉

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A regret about the GX112: even on the Mr Hobby official site, impossible to get precise instructions (maybe unless you read japan):

 

 

Some videos exist of course on YouTube (with very good reviews, btw) about the GX112, happily, that may help...

But are my parameters the brand's recommended ones??

 

I have just applied a new medium coat of GX112 (the last one). Did I wait enough (about 2h30 after the previous one)? 

Was this 3rd coat too thick? Should I have been waiting for dry conditions to go on?

The fact remains that curiously, I have a grainy surface, especially on the central area, straddling the 2 ones:

 

 

Well, we shall see after a full setting. But I suppose a delicate sanding job will be mandatory on such a surface to get finally a good result...

Holy patience...

 

[Lvp]

4 hours ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

A regret about the GX112: even on the Mr Hobby official site, impossible to get precise instructions (maybe unless you read japan):

 

 

Some videos exist of course on YouTube (with very good reviews, btw) about the GX112, happily, that may help...

But are my parameters the brand's recommended ones??

 

I have just applied a new medium coat of GX112 (the last one). Did I wait enough (about 2h30 after the previous one)? 

Was this 3rd coat too thick? Should I have been waiting for dry conditions to go on?

The fact remains that curiously, I have a grainy surface, especially on the central area, straddling the 2 ones:

 

 

Well, we shall see after a full setting. But I suppose a delicate sanding job will be mandatory on such a surface to get finally a good result...

Holy patience...

 

Holy patience indeed😁.

From personal experience, I've found the spraying at lower pressure give me better results, usually around 12-15 PSI, which may be 1 bar or under.

Also I thin the clear quite a bit more, 3/1 or 4/1 thinner to clear. Move your brush quickly to avoid runs (drips)

Some people suggest sprayer a light coat of just leveling thinner over a still slightly wet clear coat helps to achieve extra smoothness.

Really should give it between 2-5 days to achieve hardness before further processing. less time if just buffing, more if using micro-mesh.

The GX112 really is a great product.

Good luck, Les

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot Les.

I usually, like you, spray at about 15 psi for my paint coats.

But I was influenced by what I saw on You Tube videos (often about 2 bars sometimes more) and by some brand's instructions (fe, MRP recommends to spray its 2K Super Coat at 2,5 bars). From a can, the Clear Coats such the MrSC are sprayed at a high pressure, and it is though possible to get fine results with them.

The question is: must we use a higher pressure to spray a Gloss Coat vs a coat of paint? there is no consensus on this question, and from a Clear Coat to another, the recommended pressure may vary a lot - Alclad, fe, recommends to spray at 12-15 psi (1 bar) -. That is why I regret that Mr Hobby does'nt give any info about that and also about the thinning.

In the lack of precise instructions, I made a compromise at 1,8 bars.

That said, I think I sprayed at about the same pressure yesterday on the door and I got fine results. I think it is not a good idea to spray in wet conditions, even with a dehumidifier in my garage, and I suppose the disappointing today's results are for the biggest part due to that.

I will also, as you suggest, try to thin a bit more my Clear, at 70/30 (2 parts of thinner/ 1 part of Clear) but not much more imho, because this Clear is ever fluid.

Now here is my trunk after the post processing (Micromesh 3200 to 12000 and then buffing):

 

The result is not too bad but at the cost of 45 mn post processing with Micromesh 3200 to 12000 and buffings.

My next trials (I won't spray on my build until I have maximum certainty) will be done in dry conditions, thinning a bit more and at lower pressure. I could also try your suggestion to spray a light coat of leveling thinner over the wet Clear just sprayed (interesting idea). I am sure the GX112 is a great product, I have now just to determine the best way to get the best out of it...

 

Cheers, O

 

Edit a bit later: funny, I wanted to remove gently the Clear coat for new trials to come tomorrow on the trunk, by using a 2000 grit Tamiya sponge. Most of the defects disappeared and, by applying then 3000, the Micromesh from 4000 to 12000 and finally the Compounds, I could get this nice result:

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello chaps,

 

I slept on it and here is what I decided for my further test:

- despite the still wet weather, I will spray BUT I will first stop my dehumidifier a few minutes before spraying (I wonder if the latter, that tends to remove moisture in the room, is not responsible for the bad results I got yesterday). The dehumidifier will be restarted 15 mn after the end of the spraying job.

- I will spray at 15 psi, as Les suggested and as I am used to spray myself the paints.

- 2 samples: one thinned 2:1 (12 drops of Leveling thinner/ 6 drops of GX112). A light coat of Leveling thinner will be applied over.

                       one thinned 3:1 (15 drops of thinner/ 5 drops of GX112). No leveling thinner over.

 

The WW coat was applied first on the top portion of both doors, thinned with alcohol as always and sprayed at 15 psi, as always too.

1h30 after this coat of paint, I first sprayed a light tack coat of each mix, then waited a few minutes, and then sprayed a second coat, a bit thicker.

Here is the result I get:

 

 

If it is so (I may apply directly the GX112 over the WW/ alcohol coat without problem just by stopping the dehumidifier), I won't need to apply the intermediate H30 coat...

About this H30, I go on thinking it is a very good Clear, giving results close from the GX112. But (maybe I'm wrong thinking so), other things being equal, I prefer a lacquer based Clear than an acrylic one. And the UV cut function of the GX112 may be another advantage in long term...

 

Thanks for still watching this totally mad thread, I assure you I look forward to go on with my build, but after the hassles met with the Clear question, I promised myself not to apply any product on my body and hood until I am 100% sure of what I do.

 

Cheers, O

 

[Pouln]

looking good, Olivier. 
There’s no shortage in persistence with you.  😏

[Totally Mad Olivier]

7 hours ago, Pouln said:

There’s no shortage in persistence with you.  😏

Yes, Poul, I think it's a fact I can't deny!

And here is a new little update: about 1h30 after the GX112 coats above, I decided to do the buffing on the right door (at left on the previous pic). I began with the Coarse and saw that I needed a gentle sanding to remove the little grain. I tried first with the 12000 grit, and as it was not enough, used also the 8000 grit (wet) Micromesh. Back to the 12000, then Coarse, Fine and Finish Compounds (about 5 mn in total) and here is the result:

 

 

I am gonna apply this complementary coat on the left door now and we will compare the final results between both doors...

 

And a few hours later:

 

 

I finally admit that a second coat (I include the tack coat in the first one, as it is the same mix and just 5 mn between the tack one and the complementary one a bit thicker) is useful and, considering the fineness of the mix (the GX112 is ever fluid and once thinned 3:1, it is even much more), we may say that no detail will be lost and that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of this 2nd coat.

 

I have created a Word doc about the protocol I will consequently use for the GX112. It is in french, sorry, but I share it with you. 

 

Ok, this battle is over for me (unless the AK 2K ordered a few days ago on Poul suggestion still makes me change my mind!).

I learnt a lot from all these trials and I thank warmly all the ones who encouraged me and gave me good suggestions.

 

Cheers, Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello my friends,

 

 

 

 

To be followed...

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A new little update with the letters FORD:

 

 

 

 

That'll be all for tonight...

 

Cheers, O

[Prop Duster]

Olivier,

Your tests have made this whole post a source of information for so many of us.  I applauded your dedication and perseverance to find the answers you seek.   

Now, before your head swells up to big to fit through the door way, I shall say only Very Well Done and Thank You for the lessons. 

 Your humble servant 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot Steve for your kind message.

Talking about door, it is very soon on doors/body gaps that I will have to fight, to get them very thin and regular, a new challenge.

Now about my hood, iI was really very glad with it, until I made a big mistake. I wanted to send a blow of air (why??) on the latter with my airbrush. Pity, there was still a bit cellulosic thinner in the latter. Awful! I had to redo the whole job, sanding, WW paint, sanding again, buffing and finally applying again (early this morning) a first coat of GX112…

I should be able to show an update before the end of the day. Definitely, I will have done all mistakes possible on this build…

P.S: I got yesterday the AK 2K Clear recommended by Poul. Even if I am very glad with the GX112, I will test of course (not on my build) this product…

 

Edit later: here it is, my hood is acceptable (it was better before the last disaster):

 

 

But as I seem to be under some kind of witch's spell, I'm in trouble again with my left front wing:

 

 

 

Cheers, O

[Pouln]

Sorry to hear about your mishaps and even more sorry to see that you still have issues with cracks. Can’t explain that for you other than that it must be interaction between paint layers.

Hope to hear about the results you get testing the AK 2K paint.

[CrazyCrank]

Perhaps too much thinner in your mixture, or a too thick layer at this place ?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 07/11/2021 at 08:54, CrazyCrank said:

Perhaps too much thinner in your mixture, or a too thick layer at this place ?

Dear Thierry,

the thinning was exactly the same here than everywhere else (3 parts of thinner/ 1 part of GX112), and as I was very careful with this area, I sprayed certainly a thinner coat on this left wing.

Well, anyway, I did what I said: sand, buff, apply a new coat of WW, gently sand the latter from 6000 to 12000 and I just applied a very light tack coat of GX112 (in case of new fail, I will use the H30 on this f... area):

 

 

Precisely 5 mn later, another light coat (a bit thicker than the first one) was applied in turn (the dehumidifier had been stopped 5 mn before the tack coat).

And 15 mn after the last coat, here is the temporary result:

 

 

But, surprisingly, good surprise this morning:

 

 

I think some conclusions may be drawn from this last experience:

- the GX112 has been able to give good results on the "Bermuda" area, a new good point for this very good Clear coat. Notice that it is also one of the cheapest Clear Coats of the review: 3,37€ (Passion 132) the 18 ml flask, especially if you consider that it has to be thinned at least with the ratio 3 parts of thinner/ 1 part of Clear...

- I applied a very light coat (tack coat very very light followed by a light coat 5 mn later) and could get a nice shiny surface with no grain, without needing any sanding job, exactly what we may expect with a Clear coat. I will modify consequently my Word doc in french…

- and of course a lesson of perseverance and humility: don't let go until you find the right recipe...

 

Cheers, O

 

 

 

[Prop Duster]

Ahhhh, forward progress at last. That last issue on the front wing, would have had me finding a very big sledge hammer. Followed by a few practice swings.  Fortunately  You are made of sterner stuff. Great recovery of the hood et.al.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello guys,

I've been silent for several days mainly as I was far from my bench (4 days off).

I took advantage of these few days to watch carefully a video of Barbatos Rex, dedicated to Tamiya acrylics.

That's not to say that this video has shaken convictions firmly rooted in me.

Which ones?

1- The Tamiya acrylics are dedicated to an airbrush use: wrong in fact, since you add Tamiya acrylic paint retarder!

The consequence of this is very important. Up to now, I used the Vallejo acrylics thinned with water to make small corrections with a paintbrush, and I needed first to get the same color shade by learned mixtures. 

2- The Mr Color Leveling thinner, as well as the Tamiya Lacquer thinner, are only dedicated to enamel based paints: wrong, you can use them (the Mr Color being probably the best) to thin Tamiya acrylics. I don't understand how a product may thin as well acrylics and enamels, but I will of course do my own tests of this option (up to now, as you know if you follow this thread), I used almost exclusively 95° alcohol (Barbatos Rex also mentions alcohol as a good thinner) to thin my Tamiya acrylics. We know the paint coat is very important (no grain) when you want to get a Gloss surface after applying the Clear Coat. Is the Mr Color better than alcohol to get this smooth surface? Something to check, definitely... It would maybe also mean that, possibly, the X22 Tamiya Clear could give good results, if thinned with the Mr Color...

The other reason why I was silent is that friends of mine asked me to turn the colors of a little Matchbox replica of the Porsche Cabriolet. They are happy owners of a second hand Dark Blue one with Black interior and they could only find a Matchbox Peal White with Beige interior. The job is not yet over, but it will be soon (I will post a few pics here).

Here is below the Barbatos Rex link:

https://youtu.be/nojG6cz_6sY

 

Cheers, Olivier

 

N.B: another BR video captured my attention, that I recommend to you, about a great paint shaker (I ordered it):

https://youtu.be/IV5KcCHLVRY

 

[JeroenS]

I always thin my Tamiya acrylics with Mr Color Levelling thinner (50/50 usually), it's brilliant stuff. I thin the X22 with it as well, goes down nice and smooth. I like the X22 because it's sturdy but not super shiny which is fine for my truck builds. 

[Alan R]

6 hours ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

The Mr Color Leveling thinner, as well as the Tamiya Lacquer thinner, are only dedicated to enamel based paints: wrong

Hi Olivier,

I did some experiments a short while ago, trying Mr Color Levelling thinners on various paints, unfortunately not enamel paints.

This is what I discovered:

1. Tamiya Acrylics:
   Works Perfectly with these. It's my preferred thinner when spraying. It's a bit "hot" for brush painting. Subsequent coats can gen 'pulled' up by the brush action, even when the previous coats are several days old.
   I keep a 30 ml jar of my custom mix of semi-gloss black (3 XF1 + 2 X1 + 10 Mr Levelling thinners) as it is a frequently used colour on my work-bench. And, with care, I can brush paint it on small parts, currently my Hasegawa XJ-S transmission parts. I like the high ratio of thinners as it does give a smooth finish when spraying. I suspect that a lower ratio would make the brushing problem go away.
2. Mr Color (The acrylic resin paint):
   No problem here as it was designed for the paint.
3. Citadel miniatures:
   Doesn't work well. It doesn't actually thin the paint. If anything, the paint becomes slightly thicker! The best thinner for Citadel paints is distilled water or Tamiya Acrylic thinners. I love their Abbadon Black as a base coat for small parts that are going to be painter aluminium or similar.
4. Humbrol Acrylics:
   Avoid! Like the plague! When I mixed the Humbrol acrylic with Mr. Color levelling thinners, it turned into a very messy, sticky goo! You probably could use it as a glue!
   This is not a criticism of the Humbrol acrylic colours, because when used with the right thinners, it sprays well, and brush-paints well. This is most likely due to the fact that the Humbrol paints aren't lacquer/resin based.
5. Revell Acrylic:
   I didn't test this combination, simply because I forgot. I suspect they may react in the same way as the Humbrol. I have read that just using distilled water works well with Revell acrylics.
6. Zero Paints (Primers and colours):
   Works very well. I usually go for a 50:50 - 50:75 Paint/Thinners mix. I makes for a smoother finish than just ZP on it's own. This was a bit of a surprise discovery, to be honest.

 

Sorry for hijacking your excellent thread.

 

Cheers,

Alan. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

3 hours ago, Alan R said:

Sorry for hijacking your excellent thread

No hijacking at all, this thread is not mine and I want it to be a sharing place!

Thanks for your interesting comment (thanks Jeroen too) I see I am probably the only modeler who ignored that this thinner was so great in combination with Tamiya acrylics. I personally used it with enamels and the enamel based Clear coats, such the GX112, with which it works very well…

I definitely learn every day…

 

[Lvp]

11 minutes ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

No hijacking at all, this thread is not mine and I want it to be a sharing place!

Thanks for your interesting comment (thanks Jeroen too) I see I am probably the only modeler who ignored that this thinner was so great in combination with Tamiya acrylics. I personally used it with enamels and the enamel based Clear coats, such the GX112, with which it works very well…

I definitely learn every day…

 

Hi Olivier,

There are times when I want to use enamels but was always put off by the long drying times. A long time modeler,Don Yost, posted a video using lacquer thinner with enamel . It works wonderfully,  greatly improving the drying process. I imagine the leveling thinner would do the job as well.  Opens up access to many  color options 

10 minutes ago, Totally Mad Olivier said:

No hijacking at all, this thread is not mine and I want it to be a sharing place!

Thanks for your interesting comment (thanks Jeroen too) I see I am probably the only modeler who ignored that this thinner was so great in combination with Tamiya acrylics. I personally used it with enamels and the enamel based Clear coats, such the GX112, with which it works very well…

I definitely learn every day…

 

 

[Alan R]

Hi Olivier,

 

In the dim and distant past, I did used to thin enamels with Cellulose thinners. It does seem to reduce the drying time. It certainly does help prevent dust accumulation because a 'skin' forms much quicker as the thinners vapourise off much quicker.

 

Cheers,

Alan.