Ford Mustang 1964 1/2 Convertible 1/16 from the Coupe AMT kit: the Indy 500 Pace Car

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I just found another reason to paint the strips. The AMT decals are wrong:

 

 

N.B: I chose this BW frontal view pic, probably the best, but this conclusion is confirmed by other period ones of the Indy 500, fe this one:

 

Painting the blue strips will mean a delicate masking job. But there is another problem to solve: how to determine the blue color? impossible to use the photos, not reliable, and as far as I know, no color reference. I will probably use the Tamiya enamel Blue XF-8  lightened with bit of White XF-2 and thinned with the Tamiya X-20 enamel thinner. Using an enamel paint rather than an acrylic one may allow easier small corrections, as the thinners of both WW and this blue will be different. And an enamel paint allows paintbrush small retouches...

Of course, the chronology will be different from the one described above, the Gloss being applied on the painted (WW and strips) surfaces. 

 

 

 

[JeroenS]

The blue on the photo does indeed appear to be much lighter than the decal version. Good luck with masking and painting! I'm sure you'll nail it 🙂 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot JeroenS for your encouragements. But I don’t think we may refer to the photos to determine the real blue color. In the lack of precise information, I will try to imagine what I was, with an error margin.

[Lvp]

Hi Olivier, 

Looks like the color might be a light silvery blue metallic . Reminds me of my favorite Matchbox Rolls Royce I had as a child. 

Masking should not be too difficult.  Cut strips of painter's tape or Frog tape for all the spaces, then only remove the tape for what should be blue.

Don't trust the edge of the tape as it is from the roll - cut it yourself with a new blade, it will give a cleaner edge. 

Les 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

Now I found the period pic below that was missing curiously in my library while I had posted it last September (post# 183 p.8) and it hardly seems to confirm Les assumption:

 

 

Conclusion: I agree with you, Les, the blue was very likely metallic and probably a bit lighter than the AMT decals. This means a different choice for the paint than the one I mentioned above (XF-8 + XF-2). I could use the Tamiya TS-19 (Metallic Blue) sprayed with my airbrush, or first apply a coat of enamel X-11 and then, on the latter, a transparent blue, getting in both cases a nice metallic blue. 

Thanks to you and to Jeroens for your contributions 

 

P.S: the rear view below also suggests the metallic blue, definitely more than probable now for me:

 

 

[Lvp]

From personal experience I've come to appreciate the learning experience of doing things 2 to 3 times before they are correct.

But I sure wish I could 'nail it' the first time a little more often 🤪.

By the way, how did you get the peak on the hood without destroying the F O R D?

 

 

13 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks a lot JeroenS for your encouragements. But I don’t think we may refer to the photos 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Lvp
Big thumbs

[Jo NZ]

My first thought looking at the colour of the stripe is that it's Guardsman Blue  - a possible colour for 64 Mustangs. Looking at the Ditzler colour chart it looks too dark, but I'm basing my memory on full size cars in Guardsman blue.

 

I also noted at the bottom of the chart that it mentions a colour called Pace Car White....

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Lvp said:

From personal experience I've come to appreciate the learning experience of doing things 2 to 3 times before they are correct.

But I sure wish I could 'nail it' the first time a little more often 🤪.

Glad to see I am not alone in that case! The path to truth is often difficult and I rarely get it the first time. But if it requires patience, it is also quite exciting to experience that if I get finally the expected result. For the inlet slots, fe, the satisfaction of the final result was bigger than if I had got it very easily and at the first time...   

[Totally Mad Olivier]

6 hours ago, Lvp said:

how did you get the peak on the hood without destroying the F O R D?

First this peak was very subtle and barely visible. Then, and happily, it was present at the front on the AMT part between the letters O and R. Notice that the hood gap you mentioned above (post# the 573) was in fact due to the creation of this peak, and that the correction was not to do on the edge of the hood but on the bottom. What I mean here is that it is because the level was a bit higher there that we could visually feel no gap following the angle of view (I hope this sounds clear...)

[Totally Mad Olivier]

6 hours ago, Jo NZ said:

My first thought looking at the colour of the stripe is that it's Guardsman Blue  - a possible colour for 64 Mustangs. Looking at the Ditzler colour chart it looks too dark, but I'm basing my memory on full size cars in Guardsman blue.

 

I also noted at the bottom of the chart that it mentions a colour called Pace Car White.

Jo,

about the Blue, it is very possible that you are right and that they used the Guardsman Blue (I went and saw on the Net Mustangs in that metallic color and it seems to match with the strips ones, while it appears much darker indeed on the chart):

 

 

 

I am gonna first do trials, and will choose between 2 options:

- Alclad White Alu + Alclad transparent Blue (I thought that the Alclad White Alu would give a lighter Blue than the Tamiya X-11)

- Tamiya TS-19 sprayed with my airbrush.

About the White, I considered up to now that the Pace Car was painted Wimbledon White. Was there a special color for this special model? It is possible, I really don't know, but it really looks like the WW. Notice however that I didn't like the Pecamax WW mentioned above (supposed to match perfectly with the WW). I made my own mix, whiter than the latter (post# 333, 341 and 346 p. 14)... 

 

[Fastcat]

A lot of sites quote Pace Car White but others say Wimbledon White. Pace Car White looks lighter to me and the sites that quote it say that it was used because it looked better on photos and films.

WW is a creamier colour.

Ford made lots of Pace car replicas for dealerships. Maybe those used WW as it was a standard colour. We'll never know because each site insists that what it says is "fact".

Whatever, the lighter colour looks best on a model. It's a curious phenomenon that models sprayed in factory matched colours often look wrong yet when held against the real colour are seen to match well.

When they're sprayed in a lighter colour, they look more convincing. Scale effect at work!

 

Dave

[Roy vd M.]

29 minutes ago, Fastcat said:

When they're sprayed in a lighter colour, they look more convincing. Scale effect at work!

That's very correct. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dave, 

did you read Roy's post above about this question of lighter color? (I don't remember what page it is).

Anyway, it is sure that I myself preferred by far a lighter color (I like a lot the current one, much lighter than the Pecamax).

Now it is the first time I keep hearing about a Pace Car color, that would be different from the WW.

[Fastcat]

Hi Olivier,

                Yes, I've read Roy's comments and completely agree with them. I've held this view myself for many years. More than 50 years ago I went to a model show and saw some tiny ships that someone had made from the ancient Airfix Cutty Sark kits and was surprised at how good they looked and how much more realistic than my models they appeared. The modeller hadn't used any pure blacks or whites. Everything was toned down. It's a technique used by modellers of figures too.

I also went to a racing car show - you get a lot of discussion about Ferrari red, British Racing green etc. All I can say is that in a long line of Ferraris, no two were the same colour. And we're talking here of expensive and professional  restorations.

I learnt from that not to worry too much about colour - do what looks right to your eyes and which pleases you most.

Regarding the factory colours - I found it referred to here: Link

You may be right about the blue stripes being metallic blue. That would explain why they look pale in some photos where there is full sun.

If you haven't already found it, it's quite useful.

Good luck with your build.

Dave

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, Fastcat said:

do what looks right to your eyes and which pleases you most.

Dave,

I agree too with these considerations (what led me to set aside the Pecamax WW) and I did the same for the blue strips. I made several trials on my 2nd kit's hood:

 

- the TS-19  is too dark for me (close from the AMT decal in fact)

- the Alclad White Alu + transp Blue is too green for me

- the Tamiya XF-16 as the X-11 + Clear Blue TS-72 are a bit too light for me (more than what this photo suggests)

- and my winner combination is finally: Alclad Stainless Steel + TS-72: a bit darker than X-11 + TS-72. I get here a very nice metallic blue, not too light, not too dark.

 

Thanks for your encouragements

 

Olivier

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Before applying the masks, it was necessary to determine as precisely as possible the widths of the strips (notice that they are not really right on the 1.000.000$ Pace Car...). I made the close-up below:

 

N.B: on the AMT decal, the central blue strip was about 4,9 mm, the WW "strips" were 1 mm and the lateral blue strips were 1,1 mm (total: about 8 mm). I get the same total with my altered version: 3,2 + (1,5 x 2) + (0,9 x 2) = 8 mm.

[PROPELLER]

Be careful Olivier!
It's been a long time since I wanted to react on this reduction research
not only for you of course.
I had the chance to meet one of Heller's managers in charge of
the production of the Citroën 15 Six at 1/8 scale.
What was my surprise when I learned that a model is not
strictly the reduction on the chosen scale. The judge of peace is first and foremost our eye, the
felt to lead to the image that we have of the real model to the  reduced one ...
The mathematical reduction will very quickly lead you to aberrations.
The blue stripes on your model is a striking example. keep them
kit measurements! You can be sure that these measures have been carefully
thoughtful to ultimately give a good result to the eye ...
Of course, this does not mean that the kits do not include any error!
Your perseverance and tenacity honors you sir,congratulations.

Dan.
 

[harveyb258]

I applaud your tenacity dear Olivier. your grilles look really good...…………….far better than the originals, so well done mate!!!! It takes me long enough to type my comments ( old skool one finger style) so trying anything like that would result in my perpetual insanity!!!!!! 

 

I agree with colour/scale effect...……….always err on the light side where possible.

 

Cheers, H

[Fastcat]

Quote

What was my surprise when I learned that a model is not
strictly the reduction on the chosen scale. The judge of peace is first and foremost our eye, the
felt to lead to the image that we have of the real model to the  reduced one ...
The mathematical reduction will very quickly lead you to aberrations

Hi Dan,

                 What you are referring to is the master modellers art. For some reason some master modellers produce models with real soul. They slightly exaggerate some features in a way that no mathematical program does. As a result the model just looks "right" and has character. It's similar to how some cars just don't photograph well and yet in real life they look so much better.

On the other hand some manufacturers just don't research their subject properly and there's also the factor of communication between the designer and the toolmaker.

Linky

Scroll through the bog until you get to the story of Revell's Cadillac Brougham model. It makes food for thought!

 

Dave

[Totally Mad Olivier]

13 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

The mathematical reduction will very quickly lead you to aberrations.

First thanks a lot Dan for your interesting comment and your kind words.

Though, I don't think trying to be faithful (among others using sometimes mathematical reductions) leads to aberrations.

It is always the same debate in the modelers world. 

The question is: do you just want to represent a nice model or a faithful one?

In this case, I don't pretend my strips will be nicer than what I got with the AMT decals (my post# 571), even if I hope so, of course. But they will just be definitely more faithful to the original.

13 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

You can be sure that these measures have been carefully
thoughtful to ultimately give a good result to the eye ...

I agree with Dave, I don't think in this case the AMT decal designers thought:

"Well, the strips are so, but we will represent them a bit differently, it will give a better perception..."

All this kit is wrong (the strips are certainly not the worse), and the question is:

"do I mind if it is wrong or not?"

Some modelers don't mind, and this doesn't mean their build won't be nice.

Personally, I think it is more interesting to be faithful to the original, but I respect other way of looking at it.

I spent 13 months on the Fiat 806 build. At the end, I decided to build an OOB version (it took me only 3 weeks!) to enhance the many differences and improvements allowing to get a faithful replica (I could do the same with this Ford Mustang, even if it is a little better than the Protar/ Italeri kit). A great modeler, Little Andi, from the same kit, made a very artistic and beautiful build, with amazing weathering techniques, but not faithful to the original. Every modeler has his own talent and philosophy of work. My goal when building a model is to get the most faithful replica possible, using all techniques to my disposal.

I also spent 8 months on my last build, the 1/48 "Missouri Armada" P-51D, a model that doesn't exceed 20 cm. I could have spent much less time on both builds trusting on the makers and taking it easy. But on the contrary, I tried every time and for every detail to be as close as possible from truth, without considering if the modifications would improve the final result esthetically. Would the P-51 be nicer with such or such gunsight or with such or such riveted areas? Would the Fiat 806 be nicer with such or such calander grille? with such or such proportions? Not sure, but more accurate and faithful, definitely yes!

Maybe, getting older and lazier, I will prefer not being too overachiever, but for now, it is not yet the case, on the contrary. And I can understand that being so (with sometimes the use of maths) may be boring for the reader who expects seeing rather the last and ultimate weathering technique.

Anyway, thanks again for your comment Dan.

 

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

13 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

The blue stripes on your model is a striking example. keep them
kit measurements!

 

Sorry, Dan, I didn't follow this hint (I didn't see why more faithful measures and color stripes would affect negatively my build):

 

 

No offense...

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

[CrazyCrank]

Sorry Olivier to post a negative critics (and a positive one simultaneously):

The color or your strips looks very convincing  

BUT, the width of the two  WW strips and of the large blue one at the center near them doesn't match at all with the photo on post #580; IMHO...

Congrats for your tenacity

CC

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thierry,

imho, it matches quite well, on the contrary. But maybe did you refer to the first pic of the post# 580 (the restored Pace Car). I said in the post# 591 that it was not right on this model, despite its very high cost. You must check only with the period pics (the 2nd one of this post# 580, fe). 

Thanks for your kind words

Olivier

 

P.S: how are you, Thierry? are your health problems solved now?

[CrazyCrank]

1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

P.S: how are you, Thierry? are your health problems solved now?

 

Pity, no...I've a new echography-doppler tomorrow morning

Edited January 24, 2019 by CrazyCrank

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Really sorry to learn that Thierry. I wish you a fast and full recovery.

Cheers my friend