EGr-210 Bf 110's

[Roof Rat]

Hello all

 

Its been quite sometime since I last posted, I'm collecting information on a subject that I know very little about.

I know during August 1940 EGr-210 were operating Bf 110's in the fighter-bomber role from Calais-Marck airfield Calais, Can anybody help with the following please. 

 

A: Which type/mark of 110 would they have been using, and

B: Can an Eduard 1/48 Bf 110E be turned into a D, if it can what has to be done to achieve this.

 

Any information or pointing in the right direction will be gratefully received, thank you.

 

RR (Chris)

[elger]

A: C or D, but others may know more.

 

B: Converting the Eduard E kit to D specifications probably won't be hard. I'm pretty sure that the 110E kit has the same size wheels as the D, and all the other parts are there too, I think. You will also want to leave the wing bomb hard points off - only the E had those.

 

Steven ''Modeldad'' Eisenman once posted the following list regarding the differences between the 110D and E:

 

Quote

• The E had an air intake vent on the top-center of the nose. 
• The E had different main and tail wheels. 
• The D had the boat tail and life raft release cable down the left side of the fuselage from the gunner's position to the tail.
• Some Es had the boat tail, but most did not. 
• The D had an "L" shaped pitot tube (like the Spitfire), the E had a straight one just under the leading edge. 
• Gun stowage recess for the rear gun completely eliminated on the E.  From mid-production on the E had larger rudder trim tabs.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by elger

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Roof Rat said:

Hello all

 

Its been quite sometime since I last posted, I'm collecting information on a subject that I know very little about.

I know during August 1940 EGr-210 were operating Bf 110's in the fighter-bomber role from Calais-Marck airfield Calais, Can anybody help with the following please. 

 

A: Which type/mark of 110 would they have been using, and

B: Can an Eduard 1/48 Bf 110E be turned into a D, if it can what has to be done to achieve this.

 

Any information or pointing in the right direction will be gratefully received, thank you.

 

RR (Chris)

Eduard did a specific Bf110D boxing, which had Egr 210 option

https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Bf-110D-1-48.html

 

Site says discontinued, but the instructions PDF is still there, which shows what parts are in the kit, IIRC the main new parts was the fuselage with a boat tail.  I'd wondered the same thing myself!

 

I'd just ask in the wanted section and see if anyone has one spare, otherwise look out on eBay or Kingkit.

HTH

T

 

[Pauls9cb]

Erprobungsgruppe 210 was formed in July 1940 initially with 2 Staffeln flying Bf 110s and one staffel equipped with Bf 109 E fighters equipped with a centreline rack to carry a 250 kg bomb. Initially the Bf 110 staffels were equipped with mainly the D variant which had a centreline rack for 2 x 500 kg bombs with some Bf 110 C-6 a/c which carried a 30 mm cannon in a ventral position, replacing the 2 x 20 mm cannins carried by virtually all other variants. It was quite a successful squadron which initially concentrated on attacking British coastal shipping, thereafter graduating to attacking radar installtion prior to Adler Angriff, with limited success. Thereafter, the group was assigned to attacking RAF airfields and suffered heavy losses on 15 Aug 1940 when they attacked Croydon airfield by mistake, losing not only their Gruppe Kommandeur, but also several other a/c. The C-6 variants were phased out and some of the D variants were replaced with the later E variants. It was in an E variant that the replacement Gruppe Kommandeur, Martin Lutz was killed towards the end of September 1940. See John Vasco's informative book on this group.

[elger]

49 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Eduard did a specific Bf110D boxing, which had Egr 210 option

https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Bf-110D-1-48.html

 

Site says discontinued, but the instructions PDF is still there, which shows what parts are in the kit, IIRC the main new parts was the fuselage with a boat tail.  I'd wondered the same thing myself!

 

I'd just ask in the wanted section and see if anyone has one spare, otherwise look out on eBay or Kingkit.

HTH

T

 

 

I think that it's the C-6 kit that came with a decal option for Erpr.Gr.210 - here https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Plastic-kits/Limited-edition/Bf-110C-6-1-48.html

 

This has also been discontinued but I have the impression this boxing didn't sell very well so you might be able to find it in online stores still.

 

The C boxing as well as the C/D boxing also came with a 2N-coded aircraft (2N+AP) but according to its instructions it belonged to 9./ZG 76.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

27 minutes ago, elger said:

 

I think that it's the C-6 kit that came with a decal option for Erpr.Gr.210 - here https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Plastic-kits/Limited-edition/Bf-110C-6-1-48.html

 

This has also been discontinued but I have the impression this boxing didn't sell very well so you might be able to find it in online stores still.

 

The C boxing as well as the C/D boxing also came with a 2N-coded aircraft (2N+AP) but according to its instructions it belonged to 9./ZG 76.

 

 

A check shows that the C-6 boxing has a Egr-210 option

https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Bf-110C-6-1-48-1.html?cur=1&listtype=search&searchparam=Bf 110

 

But the D boxing has a Egr-210 as well

 

Note the Egr-210 England Gunsight just to left of the broken swastikas, 

 

I was interested after reading about the unit in Steven Bungay "Most Dangerous Enemy" and his notes on how the Bf110 made a very effective fighter-bomber, hence researching available kits.

 

@Roof Rat, there is also a Dragon/Cyberhobby Bf110D, don't know what markings are offered,  but as the Eduard D kit has 5, the Egr-210 option is a decal box out there

 

 

[Silver Fox]

The Dragon BF 110D  has two ZG76 options M* OK  is one, same as the Eduard sheet above. It also has a Dackelbach as well as the belly bomb rack I've build both Eduard and Dragon and found the latter an easier kit to assemble, less fiddly parts.

[tango98]

I tend to agree with Silver Fox about the 48th Dragon 110D which IMHO, apart from the erroneous camouflage instructions and the fiddlly cockpit inner coaming fit, is a far better representation of the aircraft plus the options of dropped flaps and a more accurate interior. The added bonus being that initial boxings also included decently detailed engines although I’ve no idea if the latter are still included.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Roof Rat]

Hello Gentlemen, hello all

 

May I start by thanking all of you who took the time to respond to my request, its very much appreciated, I have learnt more from your replies that I have following multiple web searches.

To help me improve my understanding of the subject I have ordered the following books, Zerstorer by Vasco & Cornwell and Bf 110 Bombsights Over England by Vasco lets hope they help.

 

With regarding a 1/48 110D as advised I have downloaded various pdf instructions to show which kit contains which parts. Also following more of your advise I will probably go down the purchasing of a 110D either from Eduard (if I can find one) or more likely Cyber Hobby route, it will make life easier.

 

Thank you again.

 

RR (Chris)

[Pauls9cb]

Chris - Despite its operational shortcomings as a heavy fighter in the BoB, I've always had a soft spot for the Bf 110s which seemed to fit that homily "if it looks right, it'll probably fly right". The 2 books you've ordered will fill you in on Erpro 210 which demonstrated through its operations how effective against Britain it could be against British defences at the time, despite the losses it suffered. I'm always surprised that this quality wasn't harnessed more widely by the Jagdwaffe since it laid the foundations for pin-point fighter-bomber tactics seen today. The Zerstorer book has a number of interesting colour profiles, including Erpro 210 a/c, but it also has a page of colour pics taken of S9+CK, one of the a/c lost during the Croydon raid on 15/8/40. The pics some from US examination of the a/c after it was sent to the US for that purpose. The colour's wartime quality but there's lots of interesting detail. The decals for this a/c are part of the Eduard Bf 110 D package. Lots of luck. Paul

[elger]

I have a soft spot for the 110 because of the exact opposite: despite looking the part it was an all-round failure; it is in that sense exemplary for the Nazi war machine.

[Hook]

23 minutes ago, elger said:

I have a soft spot for the 110 because of the exact opposite: despite looking the part it was an all-round failure; it is in that sense exemplary for the Nazi war machine.

 

To call the 110 an `allround failure´ would be a bit unjust.

 

Within its limitations it was fairly effective and respected - the later G-2 / G-4 versions were dangerous to allied bomber crews right up to the end of WWII. 

 

Jus don't try to dogfight a Spitfire with it...

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[Jure Miljevic]

Chris,

I am not quite certain but I believe Eduard Bf 110 C/D/E kits in 1/48 all come with the same same plastic parts, they only differ when it comes to PE parts, decals and resin parts. Cheers

Jure

[elger]

57 minutes ago, Hook said:

 

To call the 110 an `allround failure´ would be a bit unjust.

 

Within its limitations it was fairly effective and respected - the later G-2 / G-4 versions were dangerous to allied bomber crews right up to the end of WWII. 

 

Jus don't try to dogfight a Spitfire with it...

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

Dangerous sure, Bomber Command's loss rates are telling, but the 110 was dangerous in a similar sense that a random person on the street wielding a knife is dangerous; but the 110 and the entire Zerstörer philosophy on the whole was a failure. Besides, for one thing, the 110G night fighters with the heavy antenna were unable to maintain altitude on one engine, unlike say the Junkers 88, which had the additional benefit of having a yoke as opposed to a stick which is useful for flying at night. The main reason there were so many 110s in service because it was available (the Luftwaffe having bet on the success of the 210, which turned out to be an even bigger failure) not because it was particularly good by any stretch of the imagination.

[MigModeller]

https://www.schifferbooks.com/messerschmitt-bf-110-bombsights-over-england-erprobungsgruppe-210-in-the-battle-of-britain-3038.html

 

Lots of pics and some artist's impressions.

 

[John Vasco]

Having just joined, I thought I would take a look through threads concering my favourite subject, and hopefully correct certain pieces of information.  So I'll start with this thread...

 

'...It was in an E variant that the replacement Gruppe Kommandeur, Martin Lutz was killed towards the end of September 1940...'  No, Martin Lutz was not shot down in an 'E' variant on 27th September 1940.  Here's the full shakedown:

Messerschmitt Bf 110D-3, S9+DH, (3378). Initially damaged by P/O M Frisby of No.504 Squadron during attack on Parnall Aircraft Works at Yate, Bristol, and pursued south at low level. Finally shot down by P/O Rook of 504 Squadron. Struck trees at Tollard Green Bottom, and crashed on Bussey Stool Farm, Cranbourne Chase, 12.00 p.m. PilotFF Hauptmann Martin Lutz (Gruppenkommandeur) and Bordfunker Unteroffizer Anton Schön both killed.

 

'...I have a soft spot for the 110 because of the exact opposite: despite looking the part it was an all-round failure...', and this: '...the 110 and the entire Zerstörer philosophy on the whole was a failure...'  Oh dear!  Somebody is still believing the decades old myth about the 110 in the Battle of Britain.  Most recent research by Christer Bergström shows the following.  Bear in mind that overclaiming occurred on both sides, by pilots of all four main fighters, so that basically evens things out with regard to that matter.  The following just might be quite illuminating...

 

 

[alt-92]

27 minutes ago, John Vasco said:

Oh dear!  Somebody is still believing the decades old myth about the 110 in the Battle of Britain. 

Could be me, but that post specifically mentions middle/late war night fighter variants and the 210. No mention of BoB. So why suddenly drag that into it?

 

[John Vasco]

24 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Could be me, but that post specifically mentions middle/late war night fighter variants and the 210. No mention of BoB. So why suddenly drag that into it?

 

No it doesn't.  Here is the full post I replied to: '...I have a soft spot for the 110 because of the exact opposite: despite looking the part it was an all-round failure; it is in that sense exemplary for the Nazi war machine...'  No mention of middle/late war night fighter variants there, or the 210 (by 210 I presume you mean the Me 210).

 

 And here is the second full post from which I extracted a part of to reply to.  I have set in bold the part I replied to, and if you read that post fully, ir is at the satart of the post BEFORE any mention is made of night fighters.  Their reference to night fighters is a separate matter altogether to the sentence saying the entire Zerstörer philosophy on the whole wa sa failure: '...Dangerous sure, Bomber Command's loss rates are telling, but the 110 was dangerous in a similar sense that a random person on the street wielding a knife is dangerous; but the 110 and the entire Zerstörer philosophy on the whole was a failure. Besides, for one thing, the 110G night fighters with the heavy antenna were unable to maintain altitude on one engine, unlike say the Junkers 88, which had the additional benefit of having a yoke as opposed to a stick which is useful for flying at night. The main reason there were so many 110s in service because it was available (the Luftwaffe having bet on the success of the 210, which turned out to be an even bigger failure) not because it was particularly good by any stretch of the imagination...'

 

So I would respecfully suggest you read the posts I replied to properly, and take in my response accordingly...

[Troy Smith]

19 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

As it is, it's still not clear to me what specifically your objection is to someone else's opinion.

well, there opinions, and there is a research.  In this this is because @John Vasco is the leading researcher on Epr.210

 

and a bit of a Bf110 buff...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=john+vasco&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

So be a bit like me on one of my Hurricane epics.... 

 

On 08/07/2018 at 10:13, Jure Miljevic said:

I am not quite certain but I believe Eduard Bf 110 C/D/E kits in 1/48 all come with the same same plastic parts, they only differ when it comes to PE parts, decals and resin parts.

they don't.

The D boxings have a specfic new fuselage with the 'boat tail' and some other details.   Eduard have bundled all their C/D variations into the recent Aldertag set  BTW,  including the D fusleage and the C-6 cannon resin parts, both operated by Epr.210

 

 

the fuss on Epr.210 is that in Steven Bungay's - Most Dangerous Enemy, in the sections of 'how could the Germans have won the BoB"  he point out that the Bf110 was an excellent fighter- bomber,  and the attacks be Epr.210 really did cause damage to RAF airfields,  and along with other tactics, could have swung the result (paratroop attacks to destroy the radar towers was another, as they were hard to bomb) 

 

Good to have you here John,  always neat to have members who do actually write the books here for questioning  

[Julien]

Some people here need to step away from the keyboard and have a think about their attitude and tone. 

 

No one and I mean no one is entitled to tell another member of BM to excuse themselves from a discussion. 

 

Please respect the other members of the forum, and yes even make allowances that a good proportion do not have English as their first language.