Regarding the AMD Mirage Fuel tanks

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

 

 

Well I want to do a model with this fuel tanks

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/997232-r-v-aircraft-72053-mirage-iii-e

 

But this kit don't include those fuel tanks

 

For other part those 1700 lts subsonic fuel tanks are included on Heller Mirage III/V models 

 

So my question is those fuel tanks  are OK, if not please tell me what's wrong with them?

 

Best modeling

 

Armando

 

[ivand]

The 1700 liter fuel tanks in the Heller kit are somewhat oversized, to put it mildly.

[RAGATIGER]

So then 

 

The solution is to get the Freightdog samples??? or just simple cut them a bit

 

Well PJ Productions seem to have a wonderful Mirage family but cost 27 British Pounds from Hannants

 

Best modeling 

 

Armando

[tempestfan]

I ***think*** the Revell IIIE/R has the big bags as well as the ones with integrated bomb carriers. No idea how accurate they are, however...

[dalea]

HPM in Singapore, kit no. 72032. If they are not accurate, I'll be surprised

[ivand]

High Planes Models and PJ Productions offer the same plastic in their line of Mirage IIIE/5 and derivatives. Still, the PJ boxing includes resin fuel tanks, even if they're included on the sprues. When I find a moment, I will measure the two versions and post the results. As a bonus, I'll measure the Heller version too. 😉

 

Mind you, I can't do it right now, allow me some time.

[Aardvark]

21 hours ago, tempestfan said:

I ***think*** the Revell IIIE/R has the big bags as well as the ones with integrated bomb carriers. No idea how accurate they are, however...

I have Revell & Heller Mirage III!

But I don't  know dimensions real fuel tanks, anybody's help with dimensions & true drawings?

And, I too:

4 hours ago, ivand said:

Mind you, I can't do it right now, allow me some time.

 

B.R.

Serge

[ivand]

Right, I pulled these boxes from the stash:

 

From top to bottom, those are the "1700 liter" tanks from respectively the Heller kit, the High Planes/PJ injected sprues and the PJ resin parts:

 

My (not very scientific) measurements:

- Heller: 92,70 X 9,50 mm

- HPM: 79,70 X 8,05 mm

- PJ: 85,45 X 8,60 mm

 

If we presume the resin tanks are the most accurate, the Heller tanks are not only too long, they're also too wide, while the HPM ones are too short and narrow.

 

Next step is to compare them to plans. I'll have a look if I can find a decent one.

Edited July 7, 2018 by ivand

[RAGATIGER]

Hi Ivand

 

It look that's Heller fuel tank is about 7 mm longer than the PJ

 

 

[Apex]

The Ukrainian magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya issue 1/2004 has 1/72 Mirage III plans, including fuels tanks and ordnance. The 1700 liter tanks measure 86 mm in length and 8.8 mm in width (don't take the decimal part too seriously, the line width in the drawings is much more than 0.1 mm). If the plans are accurate, I'd say the PJ resin tanks are spot on in size. The HPM injected ones look like the 1300 liter tanks to me (not the 1700 liter ones). These measure 80 mm in length in the AiV plans.

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, Apex said:

The Ukrainian magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya issue 1/2004 has 1/72 Mirage III plans, including fuels tanks and ordnance. 

Making Chehin & Okolelov from Kharkov city. Yes, it's very  impressive drawings, but my don't know about  availability of any fuel  tanks from Mirage's or 

Mirage's in Kharkov*.

Of course, the availability of any technical documentation at the Kharkov Aviation Institute is possible, but it is unlikely that the authors had the opportunity to use it. Therefore, the drawings of these authors should be trusted in relation to the aircraft of the former USSR to the documentation for which they have access, their drawings of Western aircraft should be checked in detail.

 

Therefore, either sizes from the factory documentation or measurements of the field sample are desirable.

 

B.R.

Serge

__________

*- as I know on territory former USSR, only private

museum Zadorozny have post  war jet aircraft F-84F & Mystere IV bought from a bankrupt western museum. Unfortunately, even the F-5 and A-37B received from Vietnam were not included in the museum.

  

[ivand]

5 hours ago, Apex said:

The HPM injected ones look like the 1300 liter tanks to me (not the 1700 liter ones). These measure 80 mm in length in the AiV plans.

They do, but they really are supposed to represent the big subsonic tanks! The slim supersonic tanks are on the HPM sprues right next to the 'big' tanks!

[Apex]

5 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Making Chehin & Okolelov from Kharkov city. Yes, it's very  impressive drawings, but my don't know about  availability of any fuel  tanks from Mirage's or 

Mirage's in Kharkov*.

Of course, the availability of any technical documentation at the Kharkov Aviation Institute is possible, but it is unlikely that the authors had the opportunity to use it. Therefore, the drawings of these authors should be trusted in relation to the aircraft of the former USSR to the documentation for which they have access, their drawings of Western aircraft should be checked in detail.

 

Therefore, either sizes from the factory documentation or measurements of the field sample are desirable.

Well, the drawings are not wrong just because they are Ukrainian.

 

5 hours ago, ivand said:

They do, but they really are supposed to represent the big subsonic tanks! The slim supersonic tanks are on the HPM sprues right next to the 'big' tanks!

Maybe. I don't have the kit but still they look like the subsonic 1300 liter tanks to me. Totally different fins. Why would PJ include both injected and resin tanks of the same type?

 

http://aussiemodeller.com.au/pages/Reviews/acft kit/HPK072016_Mirage.html

[Graeme H]

On ‎08‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 04:41, ivand said:

Right, I pulled these boxes from the stash:

 

 

From top to bottom, those are the "1700 liter" tanks from respectively the Heller kit, the High Planes/PJ injected sprues and the PJ resin parts:

 

My (not very scientific) measurements:

- Heller: 92,70 X 9,50 mm

- HPM: 79,70 X 8,05 mm

- PJ: 85,45 X 8,60 mm

 

If we presume the resin tanks are the most accurate, the Heller tanks are not only too long, they're also too wide, while the HPM ones are too short and narrow.

 

Next step is to compare them to plans. I'll have a look if I can find a decent one.

 

They are all wrong, the Heller are quite oversize, the HPM are definitely supposed to be 1300 L, but are undersized for those as well

The PJ resin one is supposed to be 1700 L, but are also undersized, the best and most accurate are the HPM resin one, one caution though it is sold singly, not as a pair 

 

https://www.hpmhobbies.com/search.php?search_query=1700+L+tanks&Search=

 

This may possibly be available at Freightdog, but I couldn't find them, maybe send an email to Colin, he is the UK agent for HPM.

 

On a personal note as I need about 4 pairs, I'm making some plastic ones using 3/8" Evergreeen tube, and the ends from the HPM 1300L  faired in, but I'm making RAAF ones which have different tails on them

The Dassault one have the 2 downward sloping fins like on that box art, the HPM lets you do both, but again the with RAAF ones the tail feathers are not quite accurate, good fro Dassault ones though.

 

The only plan I have is from a Roodecal instruction sheet done in the '70's, but I believe it to be quite accurate, it's only a side view, but because it's a scan can't upload it to Flickr

If you want to send me a PM with an ordinary email addy I could send it to you.

 

With that AMD/RV kit I was so disappointed with that, showing an Argentine loadout on the boxart, but nothing inside the kit except a pair of supersonic tanks which actually match the HPM ones, but that could be purely coincidental 🙄, and even more strange no location holes for them, go figure, not my favourite kit, the fit of the nose to the rear is terrible.

 

I do have an HPM somewhere, but can't find it right now, will have a bit of a look for it, but will have to be later in the week, as I'm a bit busy over the next couple of days.

[ivand]

5 hours ago, Graeme H said:

 

They are all wrong, the Heller are quite oversize, the HPM are definitely supposed to be 1300 L, but are undersized for those as well

The PJ resin one is supposed to be 1700 L, but are also undersized, the best and most accurate are the HPM resin one, one caution though it is sold singly, not as a pair 

 

Out of curiosity, I ordered a pair from HPM, postage is pretty reasonable. Interestingly, there are also 1700 liter tanks from Freightdog, wonder if those are of the same source, even if they give you no choice of fins but have the "Dassault"  fins attached. Those are sold by pairs. Hannants has them.

Edited July 9, 2018 by ivand

[ivand]

I didn't find much in terms of 1/72 scale plans, but this is what I have. In KIT, the magazine of IPMS Belgium, issue 82, summer 1991, there is a Daco plan in 1/72 of a BAF Mirage 5BA with the 1700 liter tanks. When I compare the PJ tanks to these drawings, they match lengthwise and are just a little slimmer than the drawing in width. In KIT issue 90, summer 1993, there is an article by Patrick Bouclans who scratch built these tanks from wood in scale 1/32. The accompanying drawing mentions the width of the tank in scale 1/32 as 20 mm, which translates to 8,88 mm in 1/72. This would indicate that the PJ tanks are 0,28 mm too slim.

 

I also found 1/72 plans here. I do doubt the accuracy of these drawings, as the length of the tanks is 89,80 mm and the diameter 9,45 or 9,80 mm on the side view and the front view respectively! But then, I'm not even certain if I have a 1/1 copy using the scanned image.

 

Regarding the HPM injected tanks, they must indeed be the 1300 liter ones, the very small tanks next to them on the sprues being the 500 liter ones, I suppose.

Edited July 9, 2018 by ivand

[Aardvark]

21 hours ago, Apex said:

 Well, the drawings are not wrong just because they are Ukrainian. 

"hahaha".....

of course, I can not dispute the sacred knowledge of the inhabitants of "Antarctica"

about the accuracy of the ukrainian drawings, because everyone knows for a long time that they have all the best and the most accurate, but what about this:

"If this is according to Okolelov's drawings from A & V/ 03-2015 / - let them immediately throw in the ......[censored]........ Already, according to the renderers, there is a mix of early and late modification , and even fantasized in places.....

It's not about printing, but as drawings. Apparently they took the numbers of max. the diameter of the fuselage from the very first SO.9000 and "pulled" on it SO.9050-01 because of what everything turned into phallic pornography .....
And even in 3D went deviations from Okolelov

projections.
In general, if you dig the story further .... Okolelov's drawings give the fuselage diameter 2 mm more, which makes the plane look so thick and short, although the -9050 series had a different fuselage in the same way as the variations of the nacelle in different periods of testing."

User AlexGRD about Okolelov drawings on Sud-Ouest SO.9050 Trident  from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya 03-2015.

Resource  on Russian:

https://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-74-87#30520

 

"I have not bought A&B for a long time, and now I'm not going to take it for the distorted drawings, because I can not imagine Okalelov climbing with a tape measure on the Su-17, I do not have such a rich imagination.
The length of the Su-17M fuselage "from the shell to the shell" is 15287 mm, the reference one, at Korotichsky, is 25-30 mm longer. Which in A&V drawings after the polygraphic leash angles and sweeps, you can only guess."

user A-maketcik about  Okolelov drawings  on Su-17 from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53219&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

 

"

"-Well , his drawings on the Su-7 in A & V are currently considered the best ..."

- The best is likely to be the drawings of P.Sembrat -a from the "militaria", from which they, uh ... let's say ... well, in general they are very similar)))"

user A-maketcik about  Okolelov drawings  on Su-7 from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7920_start_500.html

 

If anyone does not know, the A-maketchik has a direct relationship to Modelsvit and the models they create ..... and yes, A-maketchik like Okolelov, too, from Kharkov...

 

I can find more reviews on the drawings of this author, but what will it change? If the author of the drawings has access to the living Su-17 makes mistakes in his drawings, then why should I believe his drawings for the Mirage of access to which he does not have? Just because these drawings are printed ukrainian magazine?

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Aardvark

[Graeme H]

16 hours ago, ivand said:

Out of curiosity, I ordered a pair from HPM, postage is pretty reasonable. Interestingly, there are also 1700 liter tanks from Freightdog, wonder if those are of the same source, even if they give you no choice of fins but have the "Dassault"  fins attached. Those are sold by pairs. Hannants has them.

Those 1700 L tanks from Freightdog are their own, they also did a set for a Falklands/Malvinas war Dagger configuration of 3 x 1300 L tanks, 2 x 250 Kg bombs and pylons, they were fairly good although the noses of the tanks were a little too pointy

[RAGATIGER]

7 hours ago, ivand said:

I didn't find much in terms of 1/72 scale plans, but this is what I have. In KIT, the magazine of IPMS Belgium, issue 82, summer 1991, there is a Daco plan in 1/72 of a BAF Mirage 5BA with the 1700 liter tanks. When I compare the PJ tanks to these drawings, they match lengthwise and are just a little slimmer than the drawing in width. In KIT issue 90, summer 1993, there is an article by Patrick Bouclans who scratch built these tanks from wood in scale 1/32. The accompanying drawing mentions the width of the tank in scale 1/32 as 20 mm, which translates to 8,88 mm in 1/72. This would indicate that the PJ tanks are 0,28 mm too slim.

 

I also found 1/72 plans here. I do doubt the accuracy of these drawings, as the length of the tanks is 89,80 mm and the diameter 9,45 or 9,80 mm on the side view and the front view respectively! But then, I'm not even certain if I have a 1/1 copy using the scanned image.

 

Regarding the HPM injected tanks, they must indeed be the 1300 liter ones, the very small tanks next to them on the sprues being the 500 liter ones, I suppose.

The normal thing must be using a standard letter paper size as there is no scale guide, even so no I also notice that Heller Supersonic fuel tanks are about way too longer but fixable if you choose well  to cut

[Silverkite]

8 hours ago, Aardvark said:

"hahaha".....

of course, I can not dispute the sacred knowledge of the inhabitants of "Antarctica"

about the accuracy of the ukrainian drawings, because everyone knows for a long time that they have all the best and the most accurate, but what about this:

"If this is according to Okolelov's drawings from A & V/ 03-2015 / - let them immediately throw in the ......[censored]........ Already, according to the renderers, there is a mix of early and late modification , and even fantasized in places.....

It's not about printing, but as drawings. Apparently they took the numbers of max. the diameter of the fuselage from the very first SO.9000 and "pulled" on it SO.9050-01 because of what everything turned into phallic pornography .....
And even in 3D went deviations from Okolelov

projections.
In general, if you dig the story further .... Okolelov's drawings give the fuselage diameter 2 mm more, which makes the plane look so thick and short, although the -9050 series had a different fuselage in the same way as the variations of the nacelle in different periods of testing."

User AlexGRD about Okolelov drawings on Sud-Ouest SO.9050 Trident  from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya 03-2015.

Resource  on Russian:

https://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-74-87#30520

 

"I have not bought A&B for a long time, and now I'm not going to take it for the distorted drawings, because I can not imagine Okalelov climbing with a tape measure on the Su-17, I do not have such a rich imagination.
The length of the Su-17M fuselage "from the shell to the shell" is 15287 mm, the reference one, at Korotichsky, is 25-30 mm longer. Which in A&V drawings after the polygraphic leash angles and sweeps, you can only guess."

user A-maketcik about  Okolelov drawings  on Su-17 from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53219&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

 

"

"-Well , his drawings on the Su-7 in A & V are currently considered the best ..."

- The best is likely to be the drawings of P.Sembrat -a from the "militaria", from which they, uh ... let's say ... well, in general they are very similar)))"

user A-maketcik about  Okolelov drawings  on Su-7 from magazine Aviatsiya i Vremya:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7920_start_500.html

 

If anyone does not know, the A-maketchik has a direct relationship to Modelsvit and the models they create ..... and yes, A-maketchik like Okolelov, too, from Kharkov...

 

I can find more reviews on the drawings of this author, but what will it change? If the author of the drawings has access to the living Su-17 makes mistakes in his drawings, then why should I believe his drawings for the Mirage of access to which he does not have? Just because these drawings are printed ukrainian magazine?

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

 

You bees saying that Modelsvit Mirage 4000, Fitters and upcoming Mirage III are and will be a work of fiction?

 

Luigi

[Space Ranger]

23 hours ago, ivand said:

I didn't find much in terms of 1/72 scale plans, but this is what I have. In KIT, the magazine of IPMS Belgium, issue 82, summer 1991, there is a Daco plan in 1/72 of a BAF Mirage 5BA with the 1700 liter tanks.

There are also these, but I have no knowledge of their provenance or accuracy. I have a set, and they are well done, but how accurate are they?

[ivand]

I saw these advertised too. The description says they're reprints of 'Aviation and Time magazine'... Never heard of it, I must admit.

[tempestfan]

Those must be the Okolelov drawings referred to by Sergei above - the author is (in cyrillic) to the bottom right below the scale bar, the source (mag) next to the (C) bottom left.