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A quick R.A.F. Hudson I question...


Simon

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Hello everyone

 

I came across this photo on the IWM website of T9277 QX-W of 224 Sqn:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205190913

 

and this one of N7342 QX-Z from the same unit:

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-royal-air-force-coastal-command-1939-1945-lockheed-hudson-mark-i-n7342-177475999.html

 

What is the small black teardrop shaped object on the side of the nose? Is it to do with the A.S.V. radar fit, as mentioned in the I.W.M. Collection caption?

 

Many thanks

 

Simon

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Good find! I just spent about 20 minutes going through all of the IWM Hudson pictures and couldn't find another with that fitting. And what is that mast type object on the spine, between the DF loop and the turret? I didn't see that on other Hudsons.

 

 

Chris

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Hi

    Link here describing the fit of ASV mk1 

 

https://uboat.net/allies/technical/uk_radars.htm

           cheers

               jery

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On 7/3/2018 at 4:21 PM, Simon said:

 

What is the small black teardrop shaped object on the side of the nose? Is it to do with the A.S.V. radar fit, as mentioned in the I.W.M. Collection caption?

 

 

I believe so, as is the one on the side of the engine cowling just ahead of the leading edge of the wing. Not sure about the one atop the fuselage, I'm trying to remember where I have a description of the aerial fit for ASV Mk.I to tell me.

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Thanks for the replies. I did wonder about the one on the engine nacelle too, but hadn't spotted the one on top of the fuselage! :doh:

 

Did the A.S.V. Hudsons carry an extra crew member, or did the W/Op do the radar too?

 

Regards


Simon

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Given that N7342 was lost as early as Dec 40, I am wondering if these are examples of aircraft fitted for but not with ASV Mk.I radar.   Surely nothing showing actual aerials of a highly sensitive secret weapon would have escaped the censors?

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I think that you are right that this is fitted for but not with.  You can see the mounting positions on the fuselage side roundel, which any censor would have removed along with the aerials.  However, I don't think the lumps on the nose are relevant to ASV - no idea what they are for.

Edited by Graham Boak
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I'm just guessing here, but think the oval-shaped area on the nose is where the Yagi antenna array was mounted. The mast-like thingie on top of the fuselage is puzzling- could it be a ram-air intake/vent for a fuselage-mounted ferry tank? That's what it looks like to me, anyway. Happy to be proved wrong! (And I usually am!)

Mike

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Maddeningly I'm away from my books just now but I think the IWM photo is reproduced across two pages in Coastal Command at War published by Ian Allan probably back in the 70s. There you can see the aerials protruding from the teardrops if my memory is correct.

 

An article in MAM Oct 2009 states the first Hudson was fitted with ASV radar in December 1939, presumably this was a trial. Note ASV is Air to Surface Vessel - it wasn't intended for submarines at first.

 

The IWM holds some photos in both censored and uncensored versions - a Sunderland escorting a convoy is one where there is one print with a ship ringed and the censor's comment to remove it. Other versions have no ship. So it is possible this is an uncensored version.

 

Somewhere I'm sure I have the description of the aerial fit but it will be a while before I can look for it. I should also be able to find the details of when operation Hudsons were fitted with ASV Mk.I - only a small number - 20 rings a bell - had it.

 

Hopefully my ramblings will prompt someone to find something definitive.

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2 minutes ago, rossm said:

 I should also be able to find the details of when operation Hudsons were fitted with ASV Mk.I - only a small number - 20 rings a bell - had it.

The article linked by @brewerjerrysays 24 Hudsons and 25 Sunderlands by end 1940.  Hudsons were the first to receive it and [my paraphrase] it was more trouble than it was worth so [my speculation] maybe a number of aerial configurations were tried.

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Hello again. Just looking through my Coastal Command books (both of them...!), and there's a photo of a 206 Sqn Hudson dated June 1940 with the same black teardrop-shaped objects, but no mast/aerial thingy on top of the fuselage, on page 32 of Ian Carter's "Coastal Command 1939-1945 (Photos from the IWM)."

 

Checking on the IWM Collections website, it's this one:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205064986

 

The aircraft behind appears not to have them. Both have an astrodome, which some Hudson Mk. I's don't seem to have.

 

I also found this photo shows an aerial on the side of the nose in a similar-ish position:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126709

 

Simon

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3 minutes ago, Simon said:

I also found this photo shows an aerial on the side of the nose in a similar-ish position:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126709

 

Simon

I think that's something else, that Hudson is a Mark IV so would not have had ASV I AFAIK - I think some Beaufighters had that aerial and I don't think it's radar - need my books to tell what.

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Would it be the same as the teardrop on the side of this CC Halifax? I'm wondering if it's a Rebecca type aerial as were mounted on the nose of Beaufighters and Beauforts?

 

 

29346994938_bf63cf02e4_b.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

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On Beaufighters the downward-tilted whiskers "served both the ASV.II receiver and the REBECCA short-range homing system … adapted for airfield homing within some Coastal Command Groups" (source: Aviaeology sheet AOD72002M RCAF Beaufighters).  The transmitter part of the ASV.II was a Yagi antenna under the nose so, where that is absent, I would expect they were REBECCA-only.  I expect the Halifax aerial is the same thing but doubt whether they were found on Hudsons in 1940 - however spookily similar the black teardrop may look. 

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Not having known Sunderlands had ASV Mk.I until this topic I'm going to ask your forgiveness and venture slightly OT by asking if anyone knows if this picture shows the equivalent aerial on a Sunderland ?

 

mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs ROYAL AIR FORCE: 1939-1945: COASTAL COMMAND. © IWM (CH 847) IWM Non Commercial License

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4 hours ago, Simon said:

Just another quick update. I just came across this photo on the AWM website:

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C283278

 

Simon

 

This is from Terry Higgins of Aviaeology fame. I believe it's posted elsewhere on the forum. It's a drawing of the nose-mounted aerial on a Beaufighter. It looks the same as the aerial in the photo.

 

41494694270_4cac967594_b.jpg

 

 

Chris

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