Spitfire PR XI windscreen: all frameless?

[fernandocouto]

Several years ago I bought a Quickboost Spitfire PR camera set, since HAS's Spitfire IX is long OOP, the resin set was kept on stash...until eduard released their Spitfires.

I'd like to build a PR XI of USAAF 7th Recon Sqn, firstly I thought I need to build a new chin for oil tank, and fill some wing panel lines.

However some sources show PR XI use frameless windscreen:

 

But these have framed part same as a fighter(such as PL965). According to Aero Details vol.27, is it a PR X instead? found photos with framed windscreen only with serial No. "PL", "PA" series have frameless ones, so it means early batch hadn't received this modification?

 

 

Then, any vacuum parts for PR XI? I mean 48th scale...

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

49 minutes ago, fernandocouto said:

But these have framed part same as a fighter(such as PL965). According to Aero Details vol.27, is it a PR X instead? found photos with framed windscreen only with serial No. "PL", "PA" series have frameless ones, so it means early batch hadn't received this modification?

 

 

Then, any vacuum parts for PR XI? I mean 48th scale...

 

PL965 flies with a fighter windscreen, I asked the pilot about this at an airshow, he said "birdstrike" was the reason.

 

PR X were a rare bird,  16 built, and used a Mk.VII fuselage with pressurised cockpit  with the PR 'bowser' wing

 

vac canopies are available.  Falcon do one in the  Spitfire Special set

http://falconmodels.co.nz/clearvax/set51.html

 

Barracudacals do one for the XIX

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/BCR48096

the rear section is deeper though

 

49 minutes ago, fernandocouto said:

and fill some wing panel lines.

 

check the detail carefully on this.  the PR 'bowser' wing has a quite a few detail differences, note the PR bowser wing was used by the PR IV, PR X. PR XI and PR XIX

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html/2

 

there is a useful guide to the bowser wing here on a PR XIX, but the wing details are the same

http://spitfiresite.com/2011/07/guided-tour-of-the-spitfire-pr-mk-xix-the-bowser-wing.html

 

note the vents near the wing tip  

you may find details of the camera fit of use as well http://spitfiresite.com/2011/07/guided-tour-of-the-spitfire-mk-xix-camera-equipment.html

 

HTH

 

 

 

[ben_m]

7 hours ago, fernandocouto said:

found photos with framed windscreen only with serial No. "PL"

 

Can you point us towards any of these photos? I can't recall seeing any wartime XIs with the armoured glass framing.

[fernandocouto]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

PL965 flies with a fighter windscreen, I asked the pilot about this at an airshow, he said "birdstrike" was the reason.

 

PR X were a rare bird,  16 built, and used a Mk.VII fuselage with pressurised cockpit  with the PR 'bowser' wing

 

vac canopies are available.  Falcon do one in the  Spitfire Special set

http://falconmodels.co.nz/clearvax/set51.html

 

Barracudacals do one for the XIX

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/BCR48096

the rear section is deeper though

 

 

check the detail carefully on this.  the PR 'bowser' wing has a quite a few detail differences, note the PR bowser wing was used by the PR IV, PR X. PR XI and PR XIX

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html/2

 

there is a useful guide to the bowser wing here on a PR XIX, but the wing details are the same

http://spitfiresite.com/2011/07/guided-tour-of-the-spitfire-pr-mk-xix-the-bowser-wing.html

 

note the vents near the wing tip  

you may find details of the camera fit of use as well http://spitfiresite.com/2011/07/guided-tour-of-the-spitfire-mk-xix-camera-equipment.html

 

HTH

 

 

 

Oh cause birdstrike........but another example, PL794 also had a fighter windscreen, why?

http://spitfiresite.com/2007/10/spitfire-pr-mk-xi-in-royal-danish-air-force.html

[fernandocouto]

2 hours ago, ben_m said:

 

Can you point us towards any of these photos? I can't recall seeing any wartime XIs with the armoured glass framing.

Sorry cannot paste photos' origin url.

One is post-war Dannish :

http://spitfiresite.com/2007/10/spitfire-pr-mk-xi-in-royal-danish-air-force.html

the other one:

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire2/spitfire-pr-ix-pl965/

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by fernandocouto
wrong typing

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, fernandocouto said:

Oh cause birdstrike........but another example, PL794 also had a fighter windscreen, why?

http://spitfiresite.com/2007/10/spitfire-pr-mk-xi-in-royal-danish-air-force.html

 

 

PL794 has the PR windscreen, as seen above.

 

Birdstrike is a problem for a warbird owners insurance, hence easier to fit fighter screen for safety.   Not checked to see what the BBMF PR XIXs fly with, and not time at the moment to do so.

 

HTH

T

PS this looks like a warbird photo, note the serial on the fin, AFAIK, PL965 was never with the USAAF

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire2/Spitfire_PR_IX_PL965.jpg

 

PPS

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p088.html

Quote

PL965PRXI6S.504719SuperM709MU 9-10-44 16S RNethAF SoTT restored as N965RF Extant as G-MKXI

Never with USAAF.  Also note high gloss finish,  and the matt finish on the wartime planes.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Troy Smith

[Paul J]

Recently restored Spit PRXI ( the one that crashed in France a few years ago) has been fitted with a newly made smooth PR style windscreen.

[Work In Progress]

It's not really about insurance, I suspect that was a metaphorical comment about personal risk rather than one based on financial risk. It's about how much personal risk of injury or sudden death you're prepared to run. A PR.XI or PR.XIX in wartime RAF service didn't spend a lot of time between 100 feet and 2000 feet where most of the birdstrike hazard is. An aeroplane on the modern display circuit spends most of its flying time in that height range, and frequently at speeds which would make the impact of even quite a small bird against the unbraced perspex windscreen unsurvivable. It's one thing at 80 knots in a Super Cub or 100 knots in a Bulldog and another altogether in a Spitfire at 250 knots* plus

 

Of course all flying carries certain risks, all display flying carries certain additional risks, and I don't criticise anyone who personally finds the risk of a birdstrike against a non-armoured Spitfire windscreen acceptable. I have often been known to fly aeroplanes at low level in the 150-200 knot range with non-armoured windscreens, preferably polycarbonate rather than acrylic, and would not turn down a go in someone's PR-windscreen Spitfire if they offered, though I would be very mindful of birdstrike risk. But if I owned one, I would make the change to the armoured windscreen without a minute's thought..

 

*there is in principal a 250 KIAS speed limit for VFR traffic below FL100, but that's really intended for straight line speed in transit, not a situation where every airshow has a radar gun trained on every Spitfire or Mustang running into the display line

Edited July 3, 2018 by Work In Progress

[fernandocouto]

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

PL794 has the PR windscreen, as seen above.

 

Birdstrike is a problem for a warbird owners insurance, hence easier to fit fighter screen for safety.   Not checked to see what the BBMF PR XIXs fly with, and not time at the moment to do so.

 

HTH

T

PS this looks like a warbird photo, note the serial on the fin, AFAIK, PL965 was never with the USAAF

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire2/Spitfire_PR_IX_PL965.jpg

 

PPS

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p088.html

Never with USAAF.  Also note high gloss finish,  and the matt finish on the wartime planes.

Thank you! Great info.

[Bedders]

Worth looking very carefully at photos of US PRXIs, as the markings changed subtly over time, and also as time went on the Vokes filters were removed - probably in the interests of getting a bit more speed out of them. So by the end the US aircraft were without the big intakes under the cowling whilst the RAF ones retained them.

 

Justin