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Panther SchmalTurm


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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks Francis :)

 

Some more life added blending together some tones of SDW Shading Colors, SDW Shading Metals and SDW Rust on hull, spare tracks, bare metal parts like tank commander turret, cooling fans... To enhance a 3d effect.

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww26.jpg

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww26a.jpg

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww27.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Thank you Aurelien.

And a good day to everyone.
Now that I have finished my move and that of the company, and that I have a little "settled", I can finally conclude this step by step.

Thorough the same method previously explained, a bit of dirt is added on tank's front, sides and backplate, with STRUCTURED POWDERS.

As already stated, these are not pigments and avail a more defined dirt pattern.panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww28.jpg

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww28a.jpgpanther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww28b.jpg

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If I may offer a few observations on what is undoubtedly a very skillfully finished model, Herr Eisenwerke.................

 

German gun barrels were factory-finished in a grey gloss lacquer not unlike Panzer Grey in shade.

 

The base colour of armour plate and cast armour was always a dark metallic brown: it could not possibly be otherwise.  The only variation was that face-hardened plate and castings were somewhat darker than rolled homogeneous plate (RHA), the latter being much preferred by Germany.  It did not (and could not possibly) wear to a silvery colour, but did develop a polished sheen from wear.  Because of the other elements in the alloy it did not rust readily and I applaud you for not being tempted to spatter it with rust spots or rusty areas.  Mild steel fittings and other parts would rust of course, and cause rust runs down the paint, and would wear to a bright metal colour.  The sheen on worn armour plate and track naturally catches the light in photos and this glint is commonly mistaken for it being a bright colour.  And many people assume that all steel is inherently a silvery colour.

 

German tracks all had a manganese content, decreasing as the war progressed.  This means they were never and could never be bright silvery metal or graphite/metallic grey, even on the wear points.  Their native colour was initially a mid metallic goldy-brown, but by later in the war this had become a somewhat browner colour as the manganese content decreased.  Again they developed a polished sheen in use but this was not silvery or graphite in colour.  The same is true for the guide horns and wear areas on the inside faces.  There isn't an easy match for that colour that I have found thus far Manganese tracks also did not rust easily, because of their inherent corrosion-inhibiting properties.  Initially their oxide was a mid grey-brown, later changing to a very dark brown.  Orange and red tones of rust would not be seen.  Shiny silver mild steel tracks would be a complete waste of time and have an incredibly short life, which is why no-one used them.

 

Congratulations on keeping the weld metal bright and not being tempted to rust it, which of course it never did.

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17 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

German tracks all had a manganese content, decreasing as the war progressed.  This means they were never and could never be bright silvery metal or graphite/metallic grey, even on the wear points.  Their native colour was initially a mid metallic goldy-brown, but by later in the war this had become a somewhat browner colour as the manganese content decreased.  Again they developed a polished sheen in use but this was not silvery or graphite in colour.  The same is true for the guide horns and wear areas on the inside faces.  There isn't an easy match for that colour that I have found thus far Manganese tracks also did not rust easily, because of their inherent corrosion-inhibiting properties.  Initially their oxide was a mid grey-brown, later changing to a very dark brown.  Orange and red tones of rust would not be seen.  Shiny silver mild steel tracks would be a complete waste of time and have an incredibly short life, which is why no-one used them.   

Do you know if the Saumur KT has Original tracks?

I distinctly remember seeing a silvery shine on the guide horns, not as much as some modelleres depict, true, but it was shiney.......

 

 

did a quick search as I'm not at home:

not the guide horn, but you get the idea....

 

Militracks 2018 - King Tiger

 

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9 minutes ago, Soeren said:

I would assume that is exactly what DA was referring to. Silvery sheen at direct light angle and brownish if not. Like in your picture.

he was talking about the wear area's, not general appearance, wasn't he?

" This means they were never and could never be bright silvery metal or graphite/metallic grey, even on the wear points"

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I'm by no means an expert, that's why I asked if the tracks are original (they looked VERY worn).

Not trying to be an obnoxious sweetheart either.....😉

just going from what I saw, at Militracks 2018 (nice event, but limiting it to german vehicles attracts a certain type of visitor. This made me (born dutch but of asian descent) a bit uncomfortable at times. especially as i had small kids with me)

outer wear surface was silver

guide horns less so (it didn't move around alot)

rolling surface on the inside of the tracks even less so

 

so annoying not being able to find a closeup of the requred area......😁

 

found this:

tiger-tank-024.jpg

looks more like what DA mentioned.

 

guess it has something to do with the terrain it's been running on?

Edited by Bozothenutter
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Ah. I seem to have stirred up some confusion.  I'm good at that.............  Part of the problem, as we're highlighting with these photos, is that the sheen makes the wear areas look silvery when they're actually not.

 

If you look at the extreme ends of the Tiger II spuds (the sticky-up worn bits) where they round over and the light doesn't catch them you can better see what the native colour looks like.  The Tiger 1 links are a bit dusty but again at the inside ends you can just see the basic colour.

 

Both Tiger tracks show what I meant about a grey-brown oxide rather than orange rust.  Yes, some of that is dust.  I might have expected the Tiger II tracks to be a bit darker brown oxide, based on the Bovington examples.

 

This is raw manganese, which gives the colour to the links.  Diluted somewhat when alloyed with steel.

JcmJpaR.jpg

 

The best pictures I have that shows the colour are these 2 of Tortoise and Churchill tracks.  You can really see the Manganese colour in the Tortoise links immediately below the Manganese picture. 

2GvEvus.jpg  B770zrv.jpg

 

These T62 links on a Sherman aren't a bad example either, both of wear and oxidation.

qgPNsF2.jpg

 

Now to throw in some (more!) confusion.  PzIV track with rusty guide horns.  Aha!  You got me!  Note also the darker brown aged oxide, but you can still just see the native colour on the rounded ends of the spuds.  So why the rust?  It's transfer from the rusty inner faces of the roadwheels and return rollers.  Like your car's brake discs, a rust film will form on the bare metal when parked up in damp conditions for a few hours  On moving off some will transfer to the guide horns but will very quickly wear off once the vehicle has driven a little way.  You can see the same effect on Pz III, Panther and Tiger guide horns too, most particularly with steel-rimmed wheels on the cats.  The eagle-eyed among you will have noticed some little orange rust spots on the spuds, not on all links.  I believe these are rust runs from the sprocket teeth from when they were at a slightly different rotation.  They are exactly in line with the teeth.  Something else to perhaps think about on a parked-up vehicle.

TocHB6l.jpg

 

No-one does a proper match for this manganese steel colour out of the pot, not even any of the weird Warhammer colours, nor do any of the big name companies seem interested: I've asked most of them ........  Xoma (a Russian model paint brand) do a colour called Burnt Metal, which looks like this.  Getting there.  Probably needs some metallic brown or perhaps a touch of bronze mixed in.

DpEFWTf.jpg

 

Washed over with Track Wash it looks like this.  Getting closer.

wuP1E4c.jpg

 

Weathered and then drybrushed back with the Burnt Metal looks like this.  Pretty close, I think.  But a straight pot colour would be much simpler.

07VmNoT.jpg

 

Lately I've been experimenting with a Vandyke Brown Metallic oil pastel, touched on and then rubbed gently with a fingertip.  Best pic I have of that effect is this MkIV.  But WW1 tanks had links of very brown, almost chocolate, face-hardened plate.  That being said, I think it will work on WW2 and later steel links too.

vURQRxW.jpg?1

 

Apologies for hijacking with pics of my stuff.  Just trying to illustrate a point, not hog the post.

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Thank you all for the contribution.

My intent was to depict a factory fresh tank, with just some dirt, as told somewhere into the posts.

According to this situation, I represented tracks with a sharp and shiny contrast, knowing that the addition of dirt would tone down them to the desired level.

 

References provided are very beautiful but, sadly… they  70 years and more old tanks. Pictures  taken p.e. from Encyclopedia of german tanks  show polished-new tracks on tanks as they come out of the factory.

 

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As the op said this is a "what if" and I believe it is mean to show off the various paints, washes and techniques rather than anything

that could be seen as realistic.

 

I do like the subtle tones and shading but the combination of reddish primer and silverish details sort of doesn't work.  The wheels look great

and I like the weathering on the lower hull and can live with the tracks. The overall color and the contrasting details and gun barrel/mantlet are

sort of whimsical though.

 

I did a "what if" Tiger II a while back with an exaggerated ambush scheme which had hundreds of contrasting dots rather than the normal pattern.

It was something to try and it got some comments but not something I kept. (got a white wash fairly quickly) Anyway this model is in that category

and while not too authentic it does look darned good. That True Earth and SDW stuff looks interesting.

 

Just my $0.02 (Canadian so not worth much)

 

Lloyd

Edited by BlackMax12
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Interesting discussions going on here, but I've been dropping by to see what effects the 'advertised' products can achieve, rather than the ins and of material science.

So, whilst the 'silver' seen on track treads is not due to a silver colour of exposed/polished/worn metal, but rather an optical effect, it's always good to see a product that can give a nice silvery, metallic,, finish.

The 'bare' metal parts of the KT do look like fairly new, or slightly tarnished metal. What that metal is, is to me, immaterial. Forgive the pun.

The red-brown of the rest, whether that be due to oxidation, red lead oxide paint, or whatever, is again immaterial. It's a nice colour and could be any of those things if appied in a particular way.

All in all then, a nicely constructed KT, depicted in an unusual state - a state which may be classed as inaccurate in respect of materials and chemistry, IF the host insists that the materials being portrayed are true to the originals.

 

Personally, I view this KT as a 'what if'.

 

So, nice one, Ironwork.

 

Rearguards

Badder

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16 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Apologies for hijacking with pics of my stuff.  Just trying to illustrate a point, not hog the post.

I find this discussion on AFV painting very interesting, trying to get accurate coloured tracks is difficult when for years we have fed the description of rusty steel with highlighted wear points of shiny metal, by the "experts".  Please Das Abteilung, keep on enlightening us, I for one am listening and making notes.

 

Bob

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A little explanation for whose who did not have tha patience to read :

- the tank is painted with minium, which, given the large shape of the object and the "hurried up to the battlefield" state, is not even but somewhat altered here and there.

- added plain metal items fresh from casting directly welded in place, with welding "alterations" shown around

- and (a thing that was told from the start), this is obviously a what if

 

Finally we can like it or not, or have our personal viewpoint of what is realistic or what is not. Fortunately we are in what I consider an art, and there' plenty of possible finishing interpretations, which makes modeling even more interesting.

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Hey guys. No apologies needed. This is a splendid paint job and the discussion should not distract from that. I really like your approach. It just looks great. BASTA

 

Nonetheless this added some questions, that could have been asked elsewhere of coirae. But if you are not too annoyed by that, it would be nice to carry on where needed, just for the sake of increasing all our knowledge.

This might be the risk of posting ones models in the WWW ;)

 

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15 hours ago, ironwork said:

References provided are very beautiful but, sadly… they  70 years and more old tanks. Pictures  taken p.e. from Encyclopedia of german tanks  show polished-new tracks on tanks as they come out of the factory.

As well noted above, worn tracks will catch the light and shine in photos.  This is exacerbated in black and white photography, which of course gives no hint of colour - only of tone.  Over-exposure was not uncommon, further exacerbating the brightness.

 

As for colour, in general the native colour of metal does not change over time.  Yes, there may be some sort of oxidation, corrosion or dulling of the surface but get through that - as you would on track wear points - and you will be back to the native metal colour.  So, whether 70 minutes or 70 years old the colour will be the same.  The underlying track metal colour on a preserved tank will be the same as the day it left the factory.  It only takes a couple of turns around the factory yard to put a good sheen on them.

 

While no paint company so far does a manganese track colour, I notice that "shine" paint is now being included in some paint modulation sets.  I haven't used any but I'm guessing it's a form of varnish: it looks uncoloured.  I must try some on some tracks.  Silvery and graphite shades do provide the "shine" effect, but are inherently the wrong colour.

 

There is a long-term misconception in the modelling community that worn tracks and armour plate are silvery and that both go rusty in the orange/brown range we typically think of.  Neither is true.  Both are made of alloys containing other metallic elements and carbon which naturally inhibit and alter the speed and nature of oxidation and corrosion.  The use of graphite is relatively recent, but is also wrong.  Brown chipping has finally caught on, now it's time for tracks.

 

It's one of those things you need to go to museums and look at rather than relying on imagery.  You get that "Ah, I see what is meant" moment.  I'm fortunate in that my work takes me near Bovington fairly frequently and I will soon be moving to that area.  I know that the great majority of us are not that lucky.

 

We haven't discussed rubber-padded tracks, largely because we began with German and they didn't use them.  Many of those are made of cheaper low- and non-manganese steels as the rubber provides the wear surface.  So you do see orangey rust and silvery wear on some of these, such as on M60s and M1s.

 

I'm not convinced that AFV modelling is a fine art genre.  To me it's a scale representation of reality and must therefore be realistic and grounded in reality.

 

The tracks on the Panther would look very different with the ice sprags worn down to the spuds, as in the real Tiger photos above.  I agree that on such small areas it is hard to tell the actual colour.  And yes, as a "papier panzer" for 1946 or later it might be assumed that Germany had been forced to use very low manganese steel for tracks as they just couldn't get it, short of recycling worn scrap tracks.

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An here you notice the sightly brownish shade added on cast parts, due to different shades of SDW Shading Colors plus the previously shown filter, working together.

- p.ex. on the casted commander turret or on driver visor.

 

This is no apologies, but only a call to look at things when they are finished, and not in half  :)

 

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww32.jpg

 

 

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Posting in WIP gives the opportunity to make changes before it's too late should factual errors etc be pointed out, as well as to be informative to others.  Differences of opinion will always be just that, of course.  If we post things partly finished then we should expect feedback.

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3 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

So, whether 70 minutes or 70 years old the colour will be the same.  The underlying track metal colour on a preserved tank will be the same as the day it left the factory

Experten, experten… :)

 

 

panther_schmalturm_true-earth_ww33.jpg

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