Dakota 4 ?

[bzn20]

G-AMZE was unsurprisingly an ex RAF Kite operated by  Smith's Industries ,used for Smith's Auto Pilot  development, one difference from the norm was it had a long aerial off the nose.

 

Edit..Just found this for 'MZE

43-48552 D27Aug44 - KJ874 RAF Montreal 30Aug44 - 108 OTU 17Nov44- 271 Sq 17Nov45 - 77 Sq - Oakington 03May48- Waterbeach 12Jan50 - 22 MU 06Feb50 - PTU Henlow 18Dec52 - G-AMZE Min of Supply 15Apr53 - S Smith & Son (Avn Div) Ltd 13May58 - B/u 01 Feb64 Burnaston .

Edited July 1, 2018 by bzn20

[mini man]

I remember seeing in Flypast mag many years age a triple engined dc3 with an engine in the snout.

[bzn20]

5 minutes ago, mini man said:

a triple engined dc3

Think it was a Pratt and Whitney Canada project . Really improved what it could do.

[bzn20]

boot

Here is a list of RAF C-47Bs/ Dak IV/ 4's and life histories for your late night read...After the football !

http://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/MilitaryC47sC117s/tabid/724/language/en-US/Default.aspx

[Eric Mc]

I remember seeing a tripple turboprop powered DC-3 at the 1978 Farnborough Air Show. It was called the Tri-Turbo 3.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:55 PM, Graham Boak said:

don't think that the UK got any C-53s.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 10:44 PM, Scimitar said:

I think you are correct. I certainly can't see any listed in the above mentioned book.

We were wrong!

They got at least 5: (c/n in brackets)

LR234     (4851)

MA928   (4907)

HK867    (4909)

FJ709      (4931)

FJ710      (4933)

[Graham Boak]

The history of those five might be interestingly different from the normal run of RAF Daks.  Presumably they'd be a prime choice for conversion to VIP aircraft, and steered away from the normal cargo-carrying squadrons.  Must have a look in the serials book - later.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Save you the effort!

 

4851 del to ferry command USAAC as  42-20081 on 04/03/42. To RAF as LR234 on 01/04/42 31 Sqn. 194 Sqn 29/04/43 to Indian Airlines  as VT-ARH. 26/06/43.,

4907 42-6455 on 20/04/42. To Britain on 18/5/42 possibly as MA928, 31 Sqn  cr 25/03/45 in India.

4909 42-6457 to RAF as Dakota II HK867  267 Sqn. soc 04/09/46

4931 42-6479 RAF as FJ709 in UK then Egypt. June 1942

4933 42-6481 RAF as FJ710  in UK then Egypt. June 1942. With 117 Sqn in 1943.

Source Air Britain.

[jyguy]

In practical terms when modelling any mark of ex-military British civil registered Dakota the following list of external differences may I hope be useful.

 

1/Most retained the generic C 47 Double cargo door. In some cases, the forward part of this door was One-piece the original retained by some aircraft had a frame. Some C 47 were modified to have a single passenger door with steps fitted most notably the BEA Pioneer fleet some of which later served with Cambrian Airways. One case G-AMFV was converted back to double cargo doors quite late in its career.

G-AMPP of Dan-Air had a non-standard single door arrangement.

 

2/Check the number of cabin windows on the subject aircraft. By the late 1960's Dakotas in passenger service were 36 seater's with an additional window at the front of the cabin each side. A number of machines also had small windows in the rear doors.

 

3/Tail faring. Many aircraft had these fitted rather than the flat end plate where the glider attachment was fitted.

 

4/Carburettor air intakes. Most aircraft on the UK register had the short type which was more suited to operating in the NW European environment rather than the long type.

 

5/Astradomes were mostly removed and faired over as the network of radio aids improved in Europe and new types took over long range work. A notable exception being G-ANAF.

 

6/Ariel types and locations changed throughout the service life of each Dakota, so again check any reference's for the airframe your building in the time period.

 

7/Venturi tube. The location of this external tube varied from aircraft to aircraft but was generally just aft of the Flight Deck windows on the Left-hand side.

 

8/Number and location of emergency exit windows. Again this varied so check those references. Later on, in service with Eastern Airways and Air Atlantique, these were outlined to comply with regulations.

 

9/ During the 1950's Transair of Croydon came up with main gear half doors to reduce drag. Among other improvements were Higher capacity hydraulic pumps to reduce gear retraction time and improve performance in the event of an engine failure on take off.

The company marketed these improvements as the Dakmaster. The Air Registration Boards designation was Dakota 6

The doors are of a compound curve so tricky to replicate.

 

10/Tailwheel. Some aircraft have a faired over tail wheel strut whilst others are open. Examples of each type are found separately in the 1/72 Italeri and Esci kits

 

General observations

All British civil Dakotas were fitted with 1200 Hp Pratt a Whitney R1830 14 cylinder Supercharged radial engines.

British Civil airworthiness requirements required those aircraft having Engines with Two-speed Superchargers fitted to be locked in low gear.

 

 

There was a C 53 on the British civil register G-AOBN which served as a radio calibration aircraft with Silver City and BUA before going to Air Anglia as a Pax/Freight aircraft. She finished her time in the UK with Skyways at Lydd.

 

Naming and designation are somewhat of a minefield especially with an aircraft as long in the tooth as the Gooney Bird.

An airframe could change mark by having an engine change from 1830-92 to 1830-90. Many operators such as Intra simply referred to the type as DC3 in timetables maybe to displace any thoughts of wartime the Dakota name may have conjured up.

One uk operator in the same document uses DC 3, C47 and Dakota IV to refer to the same machine.

 

Holders of UK professional pilots licences who flew the Aeroplane had the entry “Dakota C47” on their type rating page.

 

It's a fascinating topic and the debate will go on. I do not claim to be an expert on the subject my aim is merely to add my observations and any errors, corrections and constructive criticism are welcome.

 

Finally an invitation to the after-market cottage industry suppliers.

 

Please, could we have Transair style Gear doors in 72 and 48Th Scales and a set of engine cowlings with gills open?

 

To the Decal suppliers;

How about sheets for

Ruskin Air Services (From the Yorkshire TV series 1982),

Harvest Air.G-AMPZ and G-AMYJ

Air BVI,

Northwest as worn by G-AMPY of Air Atlantique circa 1986,

Rig Air, G-AMPZ

Fairy air surveys.G-ALWC

 

It would be nice to have the correct Red Air Anglia logos in 72nd.

 

 

[bootneck]

1 hour ago, jyguy said:

...........One uk operator in the same document uses DC 3, C47 and Dakota IV to refer to the same machine.

Hi jyguy, 

quite an extensive list and a lot to digest.  Thank you for posting this, although it's not a debate but a friendly sharing of information.  I agree with your comment, about the same aircraft being referred as different types, as the forum I am looking for suffers similar issues. (Please, nobody go off on tangents about other aircraft types in this thread. please start a fresh thread if you wish to discuss anything other than the DC3/C-47 family) It is probably because the listing covers decades and, most likely, there's been more than one contributer and they view the type according to their expertise, or lack of.

 

Here is the link to the aircraft movements chronological listing. Just select next or previous page at the bottom to move up or down the months/years. 

I've don't think the list is complete by any means, as there are dates were no entries have been entered, I can't imagine Birmingham going for 2 or 3 days without any aircraft movements; however, it is the only source of aircraft activity I can find for this airport and timescale.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Love the entry for third June 1955...25 Harvards!

Can we look forward to seeing that terminal/tower in due course?

[Ivor Ramsden]

Bootneck, I think in post 25 you've corrected a typo which appeared in post 3 but just to clarify, Manx Airlines used G-AMZB and G-AMZC, not -ZZ.

 

PM me for more details of -ZC.

[bootneck]

Thanks Ivor,  a silly mistake of mine when looking at pages and pages of serials.  I shall pm you later, reference Manx data.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[bootneck]

On 03/07/2018 at 15:47, Scimitar said:

Can we look forward to seeing that terminal/tower in due course?

It's still work in progress, however not much has been done for the last couple of weeks as it has been too hot in the mancave. 

 

Herewith views of the build so far:

 

 

 

 

 

[spaddad]

Tasty

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

5 hours ago, bootneck said:

Herewith views of the build so far:

That is really very nice.

The end result will look splendid.

My friend @alancmlaird will be slagging me off shortly because this is a 'civvy' thread but who doesn't like a Dakota,regardless of its plumage?

[Eric Mc]

Is that Elmdon terminal?

[bootneck]

It will be when it is finished.

[Eric Mc]

Looks excellent - and very recognisable. I remember standing on the terrace of that back in 1976.

[alancmlaird]

On 7/5/2018 at 2:41 PM, Scimitar said:

That is really very nice.

The end result will look splendid.

My friend @alancmlaird will be slagging me off shortly because this is a 'civvy' thread but who doesn't like a Dakota,regardless of its plumage?

Not at all....ALL Daks are wonderful of course - especially the R4D we crawled all over, inside and out, at the Prestwick Air Show (was it?) in 197?.
There has been some great info on this thread, wonder if anyone has any more history on this one...Scottish Airlines G-AMJU. I'm sure I remember reading that Scottish Aviation converted a fewl/some/many Daks to passenger DC-3 standard without the cargo door as on the picture I'll place here when I can remember how to do that!
Is the general opinion of the assembled masses here that Airfix's new Dak is about the best one in 1/72? My plan is to build G-AMJU as per the pic.

 

 

.....but with wings, obviously! (presumably SAL regarded these as an optional extra)

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by alancmlaird

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

C/N 14480/25925 Built as a C-47B and allocated 43-8664.(not carrried) Delivered direct to RAF as KJ894 ON 08/09/44 until demobbed and sold to SAL on 15/7/49.

Still with SAL in 1953 when she was allocated military serial XF757 for a trooping contract.

After SAL she was with Starways,Silver City,BUA,BUA (CI),Ulster Air Transport and then sold to the Institute Geographique Zaire as  9Q-CIR 

She was derelict in Kinshasa-N'dolo in April 1981.

 

Having written all that courtesy of the Air Britain tome on the Dakota, I found this: http://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/NonMiacoDC3s/tabid/433/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Scroll down and she appears under the G- section.

1 hour ago, alancmlaird said:

especially the R4D we crawled all over,

17171 by then a C-117D. I've still got your drawings and will get the conversion done as it has now been pending for about 46 years.

[bootneck]

That Air-Britain book certainly does sound like a tome.  There's some good info coming out about the DC3/C-47 family and I'm very appreciative, to everyone who has contributed something here; no matter how small. Please keep the data and images coming, if there is any more.

 

Thanks again.

 

Mike

[alancmlaird]

19 hours ago, Scimitar said:

C/N 14480/25925 Built as a C-47B

So......that would have been built originally with the big double cargo doors then? Confirming that SAL (probably) were the company that 'civilianised' that C-47 with a passenger interior and new rear door - notice that it is constructed to be at right angles to the ground (and with airstairs) rather than the original doors which were at right angles to the centreline. Would that have made it unusual when it returned to the RAF for the Berlin AirLift? Were original DC-3s (not C-47) fitted with that type of door or was that a SAL specific design?

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

It didn't return to the RAF.

For a while aircraft contracted for trooping flights were allocated military serials but were still operated by their owners . Can't remember why..somebody will no doubt jog my memory.

She went to SAL on 12/01/50 but wasn't registered until  28/05/51 so presume she was stored whilst waiting for a place on the conversion line?

 

The vast majority of DC-3s (*) had the original hinged (right or left) doors replaced with the drop down type with the built in steps. It saved time on turnaround.

The door's floorline being parallel to the ground is not standard..need to read up a bit more in the tome.

 

(*) Obviously this one didn't!

 

Plenty civvy Daks in here:  http://aflyinghistory.com/search-aeroplane-photographs?query=Douglas

[bootneck]

Thanks again. 

 

Mike