1939 roundel colours on a silver Sunderland

[rossm]

I wasn't sure if this belonged in "Inter War" but since the thread I started with is here then so am I.

 

I'm building L5802 as in 1939 from the Kits-World sheet, primary reference photo is in the Air Britain book. The sheet gives type B roundels on fuselage sides and upperwings, Type A below and provides all of these in "Dull" colours.

 

My question is whether this is correct?

 

My supposition based on this thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27981-early-roundel-red-vs-late-roundel-red is that the Type B should be dull and the type A should be bright colours. The photo is difficult to interpret for the underwing roundel - should it even be a type A?

 

It would be great if you could also look at my query regarding colour of cooling gills in "Inter War" https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235040140-silver-sunderland-details/

 

Thanks in advance for all help, having got as far as decalling an Italeri Sunderland I don't want to be stopped now by these problems,

Ross

[Graham Boak]

Which Air Britain book?  I'd go have a look but I've lots....  OK, compromised by looking in just one and there it was.   L/N serials.  However the photo does show a clear white round marking which corresponds to an A roundel under the wing.  I could just about convince myself that  the fuselage roundel has been modified from an A, as the central red spot appears a bit small for a proper B plus there seems to be a slight contrast between the outer wing and the (perhaps!) overpainted white, but the quality of the printed picture doesn't really bear too much analysis.  The aircraft carries RF codes before the roundel, presumably Medium Sea Grey.

 

More generally, it was certainly common to see B roundels on the fuselage in 1939, but I'm not sure about those under the wings.  Elsewhere in the book there's a picture of a silver Bombay with B roundel on the fuselage, but unfortunately the wing roundels are not visible.  Also a Beaufort and F.9/37 but they're in camouflage - however the Beaufort does have A roundels underwing with large white serials.  Presumably the Sunderland would be carrying large black serials?

 

I would have assumed that the Sunderland's roundels will have been originally painted in the prewar colours, as it was originally delivered between September and November 1938 (and it is halfway through a short production batch so my money's on October).  However, the photo is said to have been taken on the Medway near Rochester, and there's no individual code, so I suspect it was taken before delivery or on the delivery flight itself.  Which may point to a last-minute repaint?

 

[rossm]

27 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Which Air Britain book? 

Sorry, should have said - Ocean Sentinel - and the photo in there shows a mucky waterline so maybe not a delivery flight - unless after mods.

 

The Kits World sheet does provide black underwing serials.

 

I think I'll have to go with the sheet for the upperwing and fuselage roundels as I'm trying to get it ready for the Plymouth show on Saturday but, with your assumption and mine matching, I've ordered the Xtradecal pre-war sheet for the underwing roundels to be added later - no one should be able to see under the wings at the show

[Graham Boak]

Sunderlands get very mucky on the waterline, and the one in the photo isn't very dirty, so I still think it compatible with pre-service.  The lack of an individual code would support this.  Application of unit codes before delivery wasn't common in the British industry, but the slow production rate and what I could term as "clannishness" (perhaps not the ideal term) amongst the "flying boat union" makes the Sunderland a possible exception.

[rossm]

11 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Sunderlands get very mucky on the waterline, and the one in the photo isn't very dirty, so I still think it compatible with pre-service.  The lack of an individual code would support this.  Application of unit codes before delivery wasn't common in the British industry, but the slow production rate and what I could term as "clannishness" (perhaps not the ideal term) amongst the "flying boat union" makes the Sunderland a possible exception.

OK, I can go with that - an MU for flying boats might not have existed then. In which case, as I'm away from my books, please would you be able to look up the individual letter it took up with 204 Sqdn as I want to depict it at Mount Batten. Of course it may not be known, in which case I might go with F as that's what it became with 95 Sqdn later.

Edited June 28, 2018 by rossm

[Graham Boak]

Individual code F.  Delivered 15th October 1938 (yes!)  No mention of any return to manufacturer.

 

57 MU didn't form until 8.10.43 absorbing No.11 Flying Boat Storage Unit - but wartime history of this appears to be lacking in the AB Flying Support Units book.  In 1938 each one was precious, so there'd be no Storage Unit because none of them were free for storing, they were all delivered straight into service.  Ocean Sentinel's account of the unit is just the post war existence, as given in AB.

 

I agree that Ocean Sentinel is a better source, I'd just forgotten I had it, and the serials book was nearer.

[LDSModeller]

11 hours ago, rossm said:

I wasn't sure if this belonged in "Inter War" but since the thread I started with is here then so am I.

 

I'm building L5802 as in 1939 from the Kits-World sheet, primary reference photo is in the Air Britain book. The sheet gives type B roundels on fuselage sides and upperwings, Type A below and provides all of these in "Dull" colours.

 

My question is whether this is correct?

 

My supposition based on this thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27981-early-roundel-red-vs-late-roundel-red is that the Type B should be dull and the type A should be bright colours. The photo is difficult to interpret for the underwing roundel - should it even be a type A?

 

It would be great if you could also look at my query regarding colour of cooling gills in "Inter War" https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235040140-silver-sunderland-details/

 

Thanks in advance for all help, having got as far as decalling an Italeri Sunderland I don't want to be stopped now by these problems,

Ross

Hi Ross,

 

Whilst I have nothing further to add re the colours, the link below has some interesting comments

on the use of the terms A/B type roundels etc. (see specifically posts 3 & 4)

 

WWII RAF Roundel colours

 

Regards

 

Alan

[rossm]

8 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Ross,

 

Whilst I have nothing further to add re the colours, the link below has some interesting comments

on the use of the terms A/B type roundels etc. (see specifically posts 3 & 4)

 

WWII RAF Roundel colours

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

I'm aware A, A1, B etc. are not the official terms but having been brought up on them they are what comes to mind when I want to describe roundels - I haven't got Type I, II etc into my head and it's too much trouble to get Paul Lucas off the shelf. I ought to update my Coastal Command camouflage web page with them to try to get them to stick. Must admit I'd forgotten the Battle for Britain work could be helpful,

Thanks,

Ross

[Chuck1945]

12 hours ago, rossm said:

 

I'm aware A, A1, B etc. are not the official terms but having been brought up on them they are what comes to mind when I want to describe roundels - I haven't got Type I, II etc into my head and it's too much trouble to get Paul Lucas off the shelf...

Ross

Me too. I learned the roundels as A, A1, B, etc, it is easier to just keep using those designations. While not officially correct I suspect a big majority of WWII era RAF model builders will understand Type 'B' or 'C' while having to scramble for reference if Type I or II is used. "Old dogs and new tricks" comes to mind, especially in my case

[Seahawk]

It was Bruce Robertson who first devised the nomenclature.  While we might now know the official names, I think Robertson's system is not only clear and widely understood but also usefully flexible eg a blue/red roundel with a yellow outline is a B1.