Hawker Hurricane Mk.II, Russian Service

[Artie]

Hi all. I've been given this old kit wich, needless to say, it's not up to today's standards. Anyway, there's something around those old Hobbycraft kits that make me like them, surely fond memories from long ago, when I used o get them at a local hobby shop, long gone now.

I'd like to build it using the kit decals, but don't know nothing about their accuracy. Seen some colour profiles online, but as a matter of fact, I don't use to trust them, unless a picture confirms me they're OK....

According to my info, this was a Hurricane MkIIb, deployed with USSR 609IAP, and piloted by Lt Ivan Babanin. It was exRAF BM959, and sported these colours during April, 1942. So now the question...

was it a standard Mk.IIb, with eight guns wing, or was it one of the russian modified subjects..????

TIA and best regards....

[Graham Boak]

I'd suggest that the early date would imply standard RAF armament.  The Finns shot this one down, and I've seen a number of photos of it.  From memory the wolf on the tail was a little less accurately a wolf (as in barely recognisable) and I'd doubt both yellow surrounds to the stars and their presence on the upper wing.  Add patches in Russian colours over the place where the RAF roundels existed.

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

From memory the wolf on the tail was a little less accurately a wolf (as in barely recognisable) and I'd doubt both yellow surrounds to the stars and their presence on the upper wing.  Add patches in Russian colours over the place where the RAF roundels existed.

I agree with Graham but I think he is being a bit tough on the artist - it's better than I could paint! It's pretty well documentedby WW2 standards................

The first two links have very good renditions of the photos and the third has some discussion - the SAM letters referred to are not particularly useful.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/USSR/pages/Hurricane-MkIIb-USSR-609IAP-W60-BM959-Soviet-Tiiksjarvi-Air-Base-area-East-Karelia-captured-by-Finns-6th-April-1942-01.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/USSR/pages/Hurricane-MkIIb-USSR-609IAP-W60-BM959-Soviet-Tiiksjarvi-Air-Base-area-East-Karelia-captured-by-Finns-6th-April-1942-02.html

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=80.0

 

However the upper wing is not very visible. I would suggest there are in fact painted out RAF roundels on the upper wing (or you have to find a good explanation as to why they were never painted on or why the VVS left them there). To me, the tactical number, border to the star, wolf and inscription all appear to be slightly different colours - what colours they are - who knows? Maybe the wolf is wolf-coloured, the 60 and Za Rodinu are silver and the star surround is white?

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

and I'd doubt both yellow surrounds to the stars and their presence on the upper wing.  Add patches in Russian colours over the place where the RAF roundels existed.

 

1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

However the upper wing is not very visible. I would suggest there are in fact painted out RAF roundels on the upper wing (or you have to find a good explanation as to why they were never painted on or why the VVS left them there).

 

Yellow surrounds, no, white or silver, yes.

 

Upperwing stars, quite likely,  

Roundels over painted with VVS colours. NO.

This is one myth that keeps on trucking,  AFAIK, from photos, it was standard practice to overpaint RAF markings before delivery.  (as well as US practice)

One exception is more likely, odd types supplied as test aircraft for the NII, the Soviet test centre, these are often no standard, but the photos are more commonly circulated than in service types, especially in older publications.

There are exceptions, but overall I do not see evidence of VVS overpainting, and I do see evidence of red stars applied before delivery, so previous markings overpainted with RAF paint.  

 

There are a series of photos in Red Stars 4 - Lend Lease, showing Spitfires in Abadan having their roundels sprayed out, and red stars applied, and black borders added.

 

Here's a famous photo one of the series I mention,  Supermarine Spitfire Vb being prepared for delivery to the Soviet Union at Abadan, Iran in 1943.

Note, the freshly applied red stars, look closely and you can fresh paint where the roundels would have been.

Also, the British maybe got the wrong specification, and they applied stars to the upper wing and not to the tail,  (VVS practice was tail, fuselage underwing)

And, in the photos of British types supplied by Lend-Lease,  if you can see the upper wing, it has stars.  Fin stars were commonly applied by the VVS

from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

 

and to show what I mean..

 

right, the subject under discussion,  first, note lack of red stars on tail, which implies Britisgh applied stars, and very little trace of the RAF markings, which is exactly what the Spitfire photo shows,  painted out using the right colours.

I'd suggest the wolf is white, note each side varies, the starboard one looks to have a tongue and more detail, and the 60, star outline and slogan "Za Rodinu"(port) and "Za Stalina"(starboard) are in Silver.

Silver, due to the surface lustre, varies in in appearance depending on how light hits it, in the shot below note  how the light reflecting off the snow makes it shine

 

 

 

Hard to tell if regunned, probaly not at this date  maybe the Finnish Airforce Museum has a file on the plane, it was salvaged.  I can't see a leading edge yellow strip, and note the sky band has been overpainted. which would explain the wobbly serial

 

previous thread

 

@Artie

I have the kit, but not too hand,  a search shows the stars have yellow outlines, but the rest is silver.

The big problem is the Hobbycraft kit is basically a IIC, and you need a IIB, and I just explained the difference for you in another thread. ironically the box art is accurate...

Note, the HC kit is basically the old Tool Airfix Mk.I kit copied,  but as Mk.IIC with engraved panelling.

 

if you have an old tool Airfix  in the stash, you could use the wings,  but you would need to rescribe them.   the HC cannon wings could be used to make one of the very few (maybe only 2?) Sea Hurricane IC's made

 

HTH

[fubar57]

Good choice. I've got the book called "Hurricane in Foreign Service" and it gives the name of the pilot as Nikolay A. Bielicki at the time of the shoot down. A photo of a Hurricane. dated 21 March, 1942 shows the upper wing roundel painted out and no star

[Ed Russell]

@Troy Smith So we agree that the roundels are probably painted out........... I didn't say with what paint but RAF paint may well show a circle. Good point that Hurricanes sometimes had upper wing stars. The crash photos do not show  the upper wings but logic dictates they must have painted out roundels with or without stars over them. The other alternative - leaving roundels as they are and overpainting stars on them does not seem to happen on Hurricanes - at least I haven't seen pictures.

[Troy Smith]

59 minutes ago, fubar57 said:

Good choice. I've got the book called "Hurricane in Foreign Service" and it gives the name of the pilot as Nikolay A. Bielicki at the time of the shoot down. A photo of a Hurricane. dated 21 March, 1942 shows the upper wing roundel painted out and no star

this one?

 

same two photos as posted above.   Can't see upper wing clearly enough.

 

this is the photo dated 22 march 1943, I can't see one dated "21 March 1942" 

 

the photo in the book is a bit clearer, but given the angle and that you can barely see the fuselage star, you can't tell if there is a star on the upperwing.

 

16 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

So we agree that the roundels are probably painted out........... I didn't say with what paint but RAF paint may well show a circle. Good point that Hurricanes sometimes had upper wing stars. The crash photos do not show  the upper wings but logic dictates they must have painted out roundels with or without stars over them.

 

Regarding the overpainting, in the Spitfire sequence I mention, it's not just the roundel oversprayed, but the area,  again, look at the first Spitfire here

for reference, note position of roundel below, and look at same area of BM185 above, and you can see the new paint, these were ex RAF, and would have had codes as well. Note the thin black outline to the stars as well.

 

Quote

The other alternative - leaving roundels as they are and overpainting stars on them does not seem to happen on Hurricanes - at least I haven't seen pictures.

the only examples of this I know of are on  P-39's.

 

I'd not like to be too dogmatic, but from what I have seen Lend-Lease types to the VVS were delivered with red stars already applied.  

This seems standard, US types for the RAF/FAA were painted with British roundels in the US,  and there are plenty of photos of US types for the VVS painted with red stars on the production line (color shots of B-25,  and A-20 see here http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1007.0  spring to mind)

 

one oddity, B-25 had red stars with US positioning, even though these were painted in VVS specified colours, hence the 3 tone uppers and black underside, this being VVS bomber camouflage, as by this point the US stopped camouflage, the VVS still wanted camo, so they got it to VVS specification(using standard american colors)

see here http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1366.0

 

the P-39 at Tikkakoski has upperwing stars

 

there was a stuff up in the US, and that got the white disc with red star

I did ask @Dana Bell about this, but the info was buried 

 

Bell seem to have eventually got it right...

 

remember the VVS had different stars at different point in the war as well,  red with black border, then red with white/silver border, then red, with white/silver border and a thin red outline to this.

Fortunately more many more VVS photos are becoming available on Russian sites, and knowledge on the subject is growing.

there is an excellent piece here on the P39 in the VVS, with much discussion on stars 

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/general.html

 

Reminds me, the Russian authors of the Soviet Hurricane Aces book were planning a larger history of the Hurricane in the VVS.

 

A bit rambling,sorry,  but hopefully some interesting related points.

 

 

[fubar57]

Never mentioned upper wing stars on #60. The photo dated 21 March 1942 is from "Soviet Hurricane Aces of World War 2", given as a time reference only regarding upper wing stars

[fubar57]

First Hurricanes to Russia...http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricanes/index.htm

[Ed Russell]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

t

it's not just the roundel oversprayed, but the area,  again, look at the first Spitfire here

f

 

 

Lots of useful points there and nothing I don't agree with.

On the picture above it looks like they did a nice job painting out the fuselage markings but that could be a roundel-sized disc outboard of and underneath the star on the wing. The eye of faith might even discern two colours in the disc - that's careful overpainting!

[Artie]

Please, excuse my ignorance here, but....Were the british roundels painted, or were them any kind of decal..??

I've seen some models wich represent former RAF machines, passed to other users, and the area where the upperwing roundel used to be, is marked with a "shadowed" tone....the same effect that you find when you remove a sticker.  Could it be possible to find a similar effect on the russian planes...????

[larumivi1951]

Some pictures:

Rudolph

[Graham Boak]

RAF roundels were painted.  Dark areas would show overpainting, which does not appear to be present on the fuselage here. If painted in the UK would the star surrounds be silver?

 

The point about aircraft being prepainted before delivery is taken, but does that explain examples of the reverse?  Or are they all just photos of P-39s with that white surround overpainted?

 

The animal on the tail appears as a dog on one side and a pony on the other.  Neither view is  convincing as a wolf.  (The artist is better than me too, but that's no recommendation.)

[Graham Boak]

Just to add a link to the VVS Forum:http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=80.0 for a posting on a/c6 60 which confirms it is a British 12 gun example.  There are a lot of other threads in the sub-forum dealing with Russian Hurricanes, although they suffer from the loss of the photos originally included.

 

Looking at the bottom photo in #11, there is a panel missing in the upper wing where access to the outer gun barrel would be.  Weapons would be among the very first thing removed from crashed aircraft to avoid accidents.