Troy Smith Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 A Google has turned up this https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?89150-RAAF-Vultee-A-35-Vengeance-Colour-Information https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raaf-vultee-vengeance-camo-question.26398/ The 2nd link suggest them in Dupont US made RAF MAP colours, "Vengeance's built for the RAF and USAAF at the Northrop factory came out in dark Earth (DuPont71-009),dark green (71-013) over light grey (71-021). I've seen a referance that examples built for the RAAF were painted in a close match to the Australian specified colours I mentioned in the post above. I have my doubts with this though as a number of aircraft were diverted from RAF stocks which would see them painted in the DuPont colours I've quoted here. With the pic you posted, my money would be one these DuPont colours." This about correct? These are the same as used on RAF P-40s ? The first link has a book, but I have no desire to get into to much detail, I have the Frog Vengeance, a kit I failed to build when 6, and have a desire to right past failed models, without getting bogged down, but thought I'd check, because I can I presume @NAVY870 will know as he's got one in his shed. Also, thanks to @celt for sending me some decals, as mine were cracked. TIA T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Troy Smith said: A Google has turned up this https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?89150-RAAF-Vultee-A-35-Vengeance-Colour-Information https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raaf-vultee-vengeance-camo-question.26398/ The 2nd link suggest them in Dupont US made RAF MAP colours, "Vengeance's built for the RAF and USAAF at the Northrop factory came out in dark Earth (DuPont71-009),dark green (71-013) over light grey (71-021). I've seen a referance that examples built for the RAAF were painted in a close match to the Australian specified colours I mentioned in the post above. I have my doubts with this though as a number of aircraft were diverted from RAF stocks which would see them painted in the DuPont colours I've quoted here. With the pic you posted, my money would be one these DuPont colours." This about correct? These are the same as used on RAF P-40s ? The first link has a book, but I have no desire to get into to much detail, I have the Frog Vengeance, a kit I failed to build when 6, and have a desire to right past failed models, without getting bogged down, but thought I'd check, because I can I presume @NAVY870 will know as he's got one in his shed. Also, thanks to @celt for sending me some decals, as mine were cracked. TIA T Hi Troy, The attached link show the Camden Vengeance a little closer, and to me the undersides are a Duck Egg Blue aka Sky, not a grey. Camden Vengeance RAF P 40( at least E-1's) were certainly DuPont, as are these swatches of mine of an RNZAF P40E-1 ex RAF order, the under colour Duck Egg Blue aka Sky DuPont Colours HTH Regards Alan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 Hi Alan Thanks, should have made it clear I have followed the grey vs sky Dupont debate, and am in the "it's like sky, not grey camp" more that it's a case of use of those Dupont colours I want confirming. Thanks for link, I'll check when I'm not on a tablet which is all I have here, but the Camden Vengeance is unrestored? Thanks T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Dupont 71-021 was called Sky Type S Grey, and would be used where Sky was called for. It isn't a perfect match although fairly close, and has been mistaken for a grey by others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Hi Alan Thanks, should have made it clear I have followed the grey vs sky Dupont debate, and am in the "it's like sky, not grey camp" more that it's a case of use of those Dupont colours I want confirming. Thanks for link, I'll check when I'm not on a tablet which is all I have here, but the Camden Vengeance is unrestored? Thanks T Hi Troy, My swatches are definitely DuPont - provenanced by the Curtiss documents that arrived with the P 40E-1's The Camden Vengeance is to my knowledge in un-restored condition as in these photos circa 2012 by Danielle Lang, (member here on BM) better shots also of the paint scheme top and bottom Camden Vengeance 2012 Edit: I should add that DuPont was not the only paint manufacturer/supplier, that would have supplied either Curtiss Vultee et al. Berry Brothers etc also supplied paint. Regards Alan Edited June 21, 2018 by LDSModeller additional info 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I looked in my Peter C Smith book on the Vengeance and there is nothing regarding the paint used, other than to state that Northrop-built aircraft were finished in MAP dark earth, green, and light blue- not much help. I found a couple of color photos of EZ999, A27-99 located at the Camden Museum reported to be in it's original paint, that might be helpful, as well as a photo of RAF Vengeances awaiting assembly in India after shipment from the U.S. Not really an answer to your question, but it's a neat photo I have never seen before. Mike https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1003660/ https://www.modelers-reference.com/downloads/vultee-vengeance-mk-i/ https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-royal-air-force-operations-in-the-far-east-1941-1945-vultee-vengeance-177477680.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=ED382655-A7DA-4F43-A496-28EF82C9EAEA&p=646038&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dvultee%26qt_raw%3dvultee%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyreynolds Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 You could try the AussieModeller site. As far as I know the Camden a/c is unrestored but that museum has been closed to the public for some years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) Triple 9 is most certainly not in its original paint. The original paint is still lurking under its current paint job. I'll post some pics later Edit The pics on Aussiemodeller are actually mine and not my thieving offspring's Edited June 22, 2018 by NAVY870 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, NAVY870 said: Triple 9 is most certainly not in its original paint. The original paint is still lurking under its current paint job. I'll post some pics later Edit The pics on Aussiemodeller are actually mine and not my thieving offspring's Hi Steve, Most Interesting, can you please enlighten us, inquiring minds (like mine) would love to learn more re the airframes history regarding the painting and what the original paint looked like Thanks Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 The late Harold Thomas obtained EZ999 (A29-99 allocated by RAAF) from the Aeronautical Engineering School, Sydney Technical College where it had been used along with other types for Apprentice Training. While with the Aeronautical Engineering School the airframe was in Natural Metal, i.e not painted as per the attached photo. The story that has been told is that Harold painted it after acquisition with some original wartime RAAF paints that he had in storage. It NEVER carried it's current codes (as it was never issued to an operational unit) during the war and the nose art is a complete invention (likely copied from a photo of a B-29 that carried the same art in WW.II). P7979-0032-126 A27-99 EZ999 Photo John Hopton Coll by hornet103us, on Flickr Steve Mackenzie 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Hornet133 said: The late Harold Thomas obtained EZ999 (A29-99 allocated by RAAF) from the Aeronautical Engineering School, Sydney Technical College where it had been used along with other types for Apprentice Training. While with the Aeronautical Engineering School the airframe was in Natural Metal, i.e not painted as per the attached photo. The story that has been told is that Harold painted it after acquisition with some original wartime RAAF paints that he had in storage. It NEVER carried it's current codes (as it was never issued to an operational unit) during the war and the nose art is a complete invention (likely copied from a photo of a B-29 that carried the same art in WW.II). P7979-0032-126 A27-99 EZ999 Photo John Hopton Coll by hornet103us, on Flickr Steve Mackenzie Steve, Very interesting facts and photo! Photo captions I have seen state that the airplane is in its original finish, but clearly that is not so! Thank you so much for posting the details and the photo. I'm thinking, now that I know this, should I edit my post to reflect the correct information? I would hate to mislead anybody. It looks like the canopy framework is still in the original paint. One of the most distinctive combat airplanes of WW2! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Holden Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 20 hours ago, Troy Smith said: The 2nd link suggest them in Dupont US made RAF MAP colours, "Vengeance's built for the RAF and USAAF at the Northrop factory came out in dark Earth (DuPont71-009),dark green (71-013) over light grey (71-021). I've seen a referance that examples built for the RAAF were painted in a close match to the Australian specified colours I mentioned in the post above. I have my doubts with this though as a number of aircraft were diverted from RAF stocks which would see them painted in the DuPont colours I've quoted here. With the pic you posted, my money would be one these DuPont colours." This about correct? These are the same as used on RAF P-40s ? HIGHLY unlikely that California-based Vultee used the Delaware-produced DuPont paints. Somehow, a myth has propagated that all Lend-Lease RAF aircraft were painted in colours we only know were used by Curtiss. Fellow California-based manufacturer Douglas used San Francisco-produced Fuller paints and it's quite likely that Lockheed and Vultee also did. There were numerous US paint manufacturers supplying paint to the wartime aircraft industry......DuPont, Fuller,Berry Bros, Gliddens, Sherwin-Williams, Perry Austin and doubtless many others. I doubt whether anybody knows what the complete picture was. Certainly not one New England-based producer supplying the whole industry...... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 I took these about 10 years ago after the thing had a bath The underlying paint is the ex RAAF scheme that Harold applied after he got it from Sydney Tech The top coat was applied later as were the spurious markings 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Wow! Thanks so much for posting these, Steve! That is one airplane I would love to see and photograph up close and personal! Now, get back to work on the Sea Venom! Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 3 hours ago, 72modeler said: Wow! Thanks so much for posting these, Steve! That is one airplane I would love to see and photograph up close and personal! Now, get back to work on the Sea Venom! Regards, Mike Sea Venom(s) Theres more than one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) On 6/22/2018 at 11:01 AM, Roger Holden said: HIGHLY unlikely that California-based Vultee used the Delaware-produced DuPont paints. Somehow, a myth has propagated that all Lend-Lease RAF aircraft were painted in colours we only know were used by Curtiss. Fellow California-based manufacturer Douglas used San Francisco-produced Fuller paints and it's quite likely that Lockheed and Vultee also did. There were numerous US paint manufacturers supplying paint to the wartime aircraft industry......DuPont, Fuller,Berry Bros, Gliddens, Sherwin-Williams, Perry Austin and doubtless many others. I doubt whether anybody knows what the complete picture was. Certainly not one New England-based producer supplying the whole industry...... It seems Vultee was fully engaged in producing the BT-13/SNV Valiant at their California plant so the bulk of the Vengeance orders was built in Nashville. Tennessee at the Stinson plant. Nashville is a lot closer to the east coast than the west. I wonder how they sourced their materials? Edited June 23, 2018 by RJP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I was fortunate enough to get a look through Camden in 2013 (thanks Steve) My images are here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 13 hours ago, RJP said: It seems Vultee was fully engaged in producing the BT-13/SNV Valiant at their California plant so the bulk of the Vengeance orders was built in Nashville. Tennessee at the Stinson plant. Nashville is a lot closer to the east coast than the west. I wonder how they sourced their materials? BTW, Testors also provided exterior and interior aircraft paint during WW2! I have a black and white ad from an old Aerosphere 1943 that I have framed in my hobby room for "Testors Aircraft Finishes" Mike 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 8 hours ago, 72modeler said: BTW, Testors also provided exterior and interior aircraft paint during WW2! I have a black and white ad from an old Aerosphere 1943 that I have framed in my hobby room for "Testors Aircraft Finishes" Mike Cool to know about Testors The other important thing to remember, is Sub Contractors and their use of local paint manufacturers/suppliers, who may not have been mainstream IE DuPont etc. The RNZAF Museum has some ammunition boxes for F4U Corsairs, that were manufactured with the following stamped/stencilled at the end of the box, "Winters & Crampton Corporation - Granville, Michigan - Airparts" , and in Salmon Pink Primer. The RNZAF Flew only F4U-!A/D FG-1D's Corsairs. Regards Alan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 On 6/24/2018 at 9:32 AM, Calum said: I was fortunate enough to get a look through Camden in 2013 (thanks Steve) That long ago? As she's the subject of the thread you'll all be interested to know as of yesterday she's a live airframe again with electrical power successfully applied. I would like to thank the utter gonads at Vultee who designed the ground power socket in a direct line with the hard pointy bit of the bomb bay door. My hand is a delightful shade of black today, thanks heaps. 9 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Now I am going to ask the question that seems to have been forgotten: What paint colors do we use to reproduce these finishes? When it comes to the Vultee Vengeance, I do remember that FROG offered one in 1/72nd scale waaaaaayyyyyy back in the '60s. I don't know if MPM/SH/AMK(or other of the short-run makers) offer one in whatever scale. But, what Testor, Humbrol, Tamiya, Gunze, Mr. Color, etc. paints and/or mixes do we use to reproduce the DuPont, Berry Bros., etc. paints that were used for the Commonwealth MAP colors? Does anyone know? I suspect that perhaps @Dana Bell, or @Nick Millman might be able to answer this; but, I have not seen any such reference on the site(unless it is on page whatever on the "Paints" forum). Have I opened the proverbial? Joe PS. I suspect that I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 It may not mean anything, but for RAAF colours, Special Hobby (in my 1:72 Vengeance Target Tug kit, no. SH72042) chose to by-pass this discussion. Although the smaller bits are all labelled with Humbrol paint numbers, the camouflage colours are only designated by name, such as Earth Brown, Foliage Green, etc. Cheers, Bill EDIT: I had another thought, and pulled out the instructions that came with my Special Hobby RAAF Beaufort. Their recommendations are as follows: Foliage Green - Gunze Aqueous H302/Mr. Color C302 Earth Brown - Gunze Aqueous H72 90% + H47 10%/Mr. Color C22 90% + C41 10% Sky Blue - Gunze Aqueous H323/Mr. Color C323 (seems too bright to me) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) The Dupont colours are considered to be good matches for Dark Green and Dark Earth, and I think the same is true about the Fuller, so just use your usual colours. Dupont Sky Type S Grey can be found in the Colourcoats range. Bear in mind that we are talking about WW2 professional paint manufacturers: unless there is good reason to think otherwise assume a good match. Edited June 25, 2018 by Graham Boak Needed to make clear which manufacturers I meant! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 If your looking for the go to guys for RAAF camoflage and markings may I happily stitch up....................... sorry suggest @Ed Russell Garry Byk and Richard Hourigan Dashedly knowlegable chaps those three. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 On 6/25/2018 at 3:44 PM, NAVY870 said: I would like to thank the utter gonads at Vultee who designed the ground power socket in a direct line with the hard pointy bit of the bomb bay door. My hand is a delightful shade of black today, thanks heaps. Well at least I cant see the black bits any more Broken in 2 places, not best pleased. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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