mackem01 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Having thoroughly enjoyed building a couple of biplanes for the R.A.F. Centenary GB, I've decided to crack open another. I'm looking to build an early 504 (in the 201-800 serial range) using an old Merit 504K as the base kit. This brings us to the crux of this request - does anyone know what the major differences were? I don't have alot of reference material on the subject so any pointers would be greatfully received. This will be mynext build once I've cleared a subject from the S.o.D. Many thanks in advance..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The most obvious differences are engine, propeller, cowling and fuselage from firewall to just behind aft cockpit. 504s from 201-800 range (which includes serials 376, 390, 397, 398, 637, 638, 652, 653, 715 and 750-799) had been equipped mainly with gnome 80 h.p. rotaries, while later 504K had been designed to receive a wide range of engines. Cowlings of early 504s were more rounded than that of 504Ks and also extended almost to the propeller axle at the front. In area of both cockpits fuselages of early models were slab sided with parallel walls and a short semi-nacelle on each side while on 504K sides were more rounded and widened slightly towards the aft end of cowling. Here is a photo of Avro 504 398, published in A few of the first: the RFC, August 1914 article by Julian Hale, found on Royal Air Force Museum blog here ... ... and here is a photo of Avro 504K, found here. Differences in front fuselage construction are evident. Drawings of early 504s seem to be in short supply but those of Avro 504K here also include Avro 504 side view and partial fuselage top view drawings. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Many thanks for the input Jure, it's very helpful. I think the plans in the link may be of an early 504 but I'm not too sure but they are going to be very udeful when construction begins. I know some of you chaps aren't keen on the Wings Pallette site but there is a profile of an early 504 serialled 383 and with an unusually mounted Lewis gun that fires rearwards from the front cockpit! that'll be the one I'll be modelling and was flown by a Lt. Strange - can anyone shed any other info on this machine please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I am glad it helped. There is also an article on that topic in the old February 1969 issue of Airfix Magazine. It is mainly about Avro 504 K but also includes drawings, sketches and descriptions of conversions into early B and J versions. Perhaps you happen to have it in paper but if not, online version can be found here. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Louis Strange has a record of experimenting with armament. He was the pilot who was changing the ammunition drum on the upper wing when the aircraft rolled over and he found himself hanging on to the drum. He managed to swing his legs back into the cockpit and kick the stick. Now that'd be an interesting diorama... However, it was a Martinsyde S.1. Wiki gives an account of his life including a brief description of the gun position in his Avro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 Cheers Graham, I thought the name was familiar. And thanks for further reference material Jure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Mackem01, according to Bruce Robertson's book British Military Aircraft Serials 1911-79 (Patrick Stephens 1979) 383 was B.E.2. Paul R. Hare's book The Royal Aircraft Factory (Putnam 1990) lists 383 as either B.E.2 or B.E.2a, built by Armstrong-Whitworth. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) Get the Windsock Datafile on the early Avro 504s - from memory the fuselage starts to widen (by using wider ribs on the longerons) around the cockpit on the 504K, where as it's flat on the earlier oneshttps://www.windsockdatafilespecials.co.uk/156early-avro-504-biplanes-689-p.asp Edited June 22, 2018 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 I tried this conversion using the Airfix 504K in 1/72. The main differences are the forward section from the front cabanes which is flatter and slightly narrower. The major task was reshaping the cowling. HTH https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-72-avro-504-01048-conversions-t41111-s30.html The 504A is on page 3. Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 Unfortunately, the way this old kit is moulded with internal structure and the like , it's preventing me from making any alterations. So for the time being an early 504 is off the cards. I'll still be building the kit but as a 'K version. Work will commence very soon. I would like to thank everyone for all the time and effort you have all expended, but I'm just taking the easy route with this one! Cheers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 If you really want a challenge.... 🙂😎 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 OOOOO! more info please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) Cierva C6C autogiro, based on an Avro 504K fuselage. It's a single seater, there was also a two seater (C6D) and later ones (C8) based on a 504N fuselage There is a plan here (albeit it shows a two seat fuselage)https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=6748631&d=1399578183 I have a 1/72 conversion in progress from the Airfix kit I've been fiddling with for about 20 years now! Edited June 27, 2018 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 As Dave says. Specifically the Avro 574/Cierva C6C J8068. Probably as shown at Hendon Air Display July 3rd 1926. judging by the large show number. Basically like the original Cierva C.6A but with Clerget engine rather than Le Rhone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Some more info (Thank goodness for the Flight archive, I spent several hours in the library browsing old issues to get this back in the day) https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1926/1926 - 0954.html There is some film https://www.britishpathe.com/video/windmill-plane-test-cuts/query/Cierva This shows the earlier C6A - useful for rotor head details https://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-bird-machine-1/query/Cierva 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) I'm afraid I took the boring route and simply looked in the Putnam "Avro Aircraft since 1908". Dave: is that Avro the one I swapped with you for an original Airfix Spitfire I (which still isn't made, either)? Or am I getting confused? Edited June 27, 2018 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: I'm afraid I took the boring route and simply looked in the Putnam "Avro Aircraft since 1908". Dave: is that Avro the one I swapped with you for an original Airfix Spitfire I (which still isn't made, either)? Or am I getting confused? Not sure, it might be - it all becomes a blur after a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 It looks also as very early variant: flat sides of fuselage are obvious dofference More about early variants here https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/avro-504-to-avro-504h I am on other side doing currently 504 N from 1940! Cheers J-W 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Interesting choice, J-W. Which one would that be, Estonian 504R? Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Just to add a little incase this thread is found in future, another change in the later 504s is that the rear cockpit was one bay further back than the early ones. There were also different length ailerons on some, and some changes in wing stagger and rear cabana struts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheonix Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Further to these discussions: there are articles on the Avro 504N conversion and the Cierva in old copies of Airfix Magazine. I do not remember the dates of the issues but if anyone is interested I can look them up, (literally so as they are stored in my roof!), and post specific details here. I can also scan copies and forward if modellers wish to send me an e-mail address. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) The Cierva was Feb 1970, for the later C8R version (Vol 11/6), https://archive.org/details/Airfix_Magazine_1970-02 the 504N was July 1967 (Vol 8/11) - just a couple of months after the kit came out. Edited July 3, 2018 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted August 5, 2018 Author Share Posted August 5, 2018 Quick paint question in relation to this build.............Humbrol enamel HU026 - how accurate is it as colouring for the upper fuselage. I'm prepared to accept something close as I understand there was alot of variation. Also, I will post up a progress report tomorrow. Cheers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Too brown, it should be a dark olive green/brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted August 6, 2018 Author Share Posted August 6, 2018 Many thanks Dave. Advice duly actioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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