Jump to content

co belligerent air force spitfire V


beppe

Recommended Posts

i am looking for info about the spitfire of the 51 stormo italian Co belligerent air force.

 

Can you help me with this topic ?

 

 

Cheers,

 

Joseph

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vast majority were Mk.Vc, with a smaller number of Mk.Vb, all tropicalised. A good number of Vc didn't have the small fairing beside the cannons typical of the C wing and these are often incorrectly captioned as Vb in pictures, check all details to verify if the picture shows a Vc or a Vb. Speaking of pictures, a number can be seen here:

 

http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_03_51_ICAF_Spit.htm

 

The aircrafts passed to the Italians came from a number of RAF units and several were also former USAAF. The colour schemes would have been the ones typical of the RAF of the period and this means mostly in Day Fighter Scheme (Dark Green/Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey). It is possible that a number retained the desert scheme but overall it's likely that most were in DFS. As on most of these aircrafts the scheme had been applied at Maintenance Unit level, the scheme was not always necessarily applied correcly, some of the colour stills in the link above for example show reversed schemes, with the grey passing through the cockpit.

RAF roundels were overpaninted with Italian ones, those on the fuselage and under the wings in the standard RAF sizes, I'll check the ones above the wings, may have been smaller as Italian practice was to have both upper and lower wing roundels of the same size.

Codes were applied on the tail, with the individual numbers repeated under the nose, in white or yellow.

 

There was an aftermarket sheet issued by a modelling club under the name MT Decals, details are here, unfortunately in Italian language only:

 

nuke.gmtmodellismo.it/ARTICOLI/GLIAEREIDAL1939AL19452ªGUERRAMONDIALE/SPITFIREITALIANIDECALSMT/tabid/418/Default.aspx

 

I'm pretty sure that Tauromodel did something too for these aircrafts, will check and let you know,

I'll also get back with some more info in a later post

 

 

Edited by Giorgio N
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went to the MT site,

 

They spoke about aircraft being repainted RLM 75 and verde mimeticco 2, that's gray and green.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, beppe said:

I went to the MT site,

 

They spoke about aircraft being repainted RLM 75 and verde mimeticco 2, that's gray and green.

 

 

 

Can you post a link to the page where this is mentioned ? Would that be for the full camo or to repaint previous codes and insignia ?
I've seen mentions of the use of Italian colours in the past, both to repaint previous markings and for the full repainting of airframes. I have made my opinion over time regarding the various possibilities, not 100% sure these are correct but anyway here they are...

Previous markings were sure repainted to some extent. The use of "whatever colour available" is often mentioned in Italian sources and of course makes perfect sense. Whenever the words "whatever colour available" are used however my first thought is: what were the most easily available colours? Italian Verde Oliva Scuro 2 would have clearly been easily available. German colours ? Who knows, these colours were sure around in Southern italy but would the folks used to working with Italian paints have bothered to hunt around for stocks of German colours ? Why not keep using Italian colours ? Afterall there were both a dark grey and a light grey in Italian paint stocks, these being Grigio Azzurro Scuro 3 (previously used on seaplanes and torpedo-bombers) and Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 (used on the undersurfaces of pretty much every aircraft).

And more, as by then there was a strong Allied presence in Southern Italy, why not simple standard RAF MAP  colours ? Galatina airport afterall hosted a number of RAF units, maybe getting a few tins of MAP paint could have been easy enough ?

Full repaints of aircrafts are a different story: I've read statements in Italian modelling magazines that read something like "aircrafts were often repainted" and I struggle to believe this. These aircrafts were in service for a relatively short time and being pretty battered when received they required the full attention of the ground crews to keep them operational. I can't see how they could have been repainted "several times" over 8 months of operations. It is however known that a number of aircrafts passed through the Italian equivalent of an MU during this time and these aircraft could well have been repainted if required.

If repainted, what scheme did they get ? Really most pictures show schemes that are consistent with the standard RAF ones but there are a couple of exceptions. One is included in the MT decal sheet and features relatively narrow bands of alternating colours. This scheme was present on at least one aircraft but we should keep in mind that the picture showing this was taken after the end of the war. The scheme could have been introduced earlier but we simply don't know.

Then there's a scheme with upper surfaces in overall green, supposedly worn by 20-14, of which there's no picture.

 

Last but not least, I should add that for many years Italian sources described these aircrafts as wearing desert schemes only. This was simply one of the many modelling myths, generated in this case by the lack of knowledge of proper RAF specifications by the authors of the first articles on the matter. Back then many just assumed that the equation MTO = Desert Scheme would cover every possible aircraft throughout the whole war, today we know that this was not the case. There are pictures of aircrafts ready for delivery to the Italians that even show sky rear fuselage bands, an identification marking only used on DFS painted aircrafts.... at the same time I've seen no picture of an Italian aircraft wearing the band, meaning that this feature was also repainted.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread.

 

Based purely on casual reading I thought that ex USAAF Vb and c’s were redistributed to Italy and Yugoslavia. Mention by Giorgio of aircraft with a Sky band could be a guide to ex US machines?

 

A random googling produced this

 

http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/SPIT-COB.html

 

Interesting comment about the green Spitfire.

 

Trevor

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

Interesting thread.

 

Based purely on casual reading I thought that ex USAAF Vb and c’s were redistributed to Italy and Yugoslavia. Mention by Giorgio of aircraft with a Sky band could be a guide to ex US machines?

 

A random googling produced this

 

http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/SPIT-COB.html

 

Interesting comment about the green Spitfire.

 

Trevor

 

The aircrafts I have seen with Sky bands all carried RAF markings. It is true that USAAF Mk.Vs were given to Italy and Jugoslavia, but these were machines formerly serving in the MTO. All Italian Spit V were previously with MTO units and the same later applied to the Mk.IXs

 

Nice picture ! That brings a lot of questions... the dark colour through the cockpit hints at DFS, yet the contrast is the one we may expect from the desert scheme. The contrast between the lighter upper colour and the lower one is also more indicative of desert. Which scheme was actually carried on this aircraft ?
The one in the background looks very dark, could it be overall dark green ? Or was it simply a machine repainted in DFS with colours that don't match too well the original scheme ? Something that we know happened in the MTO

Edited by Giorgio N
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Giorgio,

 

I browsed through the net and found a review, actually two reviews of MT 32-001 spitfire IX & V in Italian service.

The color calls for the first spitfire, a clipped wings spit Vb serial 20-4 are RLM 76 and verde mimeticco.

in the meantime, I noticed that those colors are for the touch-ups.

 

As for the RLM 76, weren't the BF-109 G  issued to the regia round '43, there must have been some paint stock somewhere.

Edited by beppe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the Regia Aeronautica used a number of Bf.109G in standard RLM 74/75/76 scheme, so they may have had tins of these German colours available. However on the same aircrafts the cancellation of the original German markings seem to have been made with Italian paints. It's more likely that any stock of German paint would have been taken from former Luftwaffe stock abandoned during the retreat from Southern Italy.

In any case we may never really know, all known pictures are B/W, apart from the colour film from which some of the pictures in the EAF51.org page are taken. Speaking of which, part of the film can be seen here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l46uc6hY-4I

 

Contrary to the title, these are not Malta Spitfires...

As to which colour is best to reproduce the cancelled markings, I wouldn't be too fussy anyway. Whatever colour was used would have likely been applied in a way that would not necessarily guarantee the correct finish. As long as there's some difference that could match the pictures, I'd be happy enough with it. The green could have been Italian or British, the greys could have been Italian, British or German.

 

I have no idea if the MT decal sheet is still available or not. The manufacturer does not seem to have an online shop anymore, guess your best chance is checking a number of online sites.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talking of Malta Spitfires after following Giorgio’s link to the colour movie, You Tube suggested this link......

 

 

Rapid fire page change I suppose you pause and enlarge the relevant page you are interested in?

 

Trevor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/18/2018 at 8:41 AM, Giorgio N said:

 

Full repaints of aircrafts are a different story: I've read statements in Italian modelling magazines that read something like "aircrafts were often repainted" and I struggle to believe this. These aircrafts were in service for a relatively short time and being pretty battered when received they required the full attention of the ground crews to keep them operational. I can't see how they could have been repainted "several times" over 8 months of operations. It is however known that a number of aircrafts passed through the Italian equivalent of an MU during this time and these aircraft could well have been repainted if required.

If repainted, what scheme did they get ? Really most pictures show schemes that are consistent with the standard RAF ones but there are a couple of exceptions. One is included in the MT decal sheet and features relatively narrow bands of alternating colours. This scheme was present on at least one aircraft but we should keep in mind that the picture showing this was taken after the end of the war. The scheme could have been introduced earlier but we simply don't know.

Then there's a scheme with upper surfaces in overall green, supposedly worn by 20-14, of which there's no picture.

 

Last but not least, I should add that for many years Italian sources described these aircrafts as wearing desert schemes only. This was simply one of the many modelling myths, generated in this case by the lack of knowledge of proper RAF specifications by the authors of the first articles on the matter. Back then many just assumed that the equation MTO = Desert Scheme would cover every possible aircraft throughout the whole war, today we know that this was not the case. There are pictures of aircrafts ready for delivery to the Italians that even show sky rear fuselage bands, an identification marking only used on DFS painted aircrafts.... at the same time I've seen no picture of an Italian aircraft wearing the band, meaning that this feature was also repainted.

 

Hi Giorgio,

 

Totally agree with your analysis, I just wanted to mention that there were RAF MU's all over the place - including at Leverano - and that I very much doubt that British aircraft would have passed over to the Regia Aeronautica without technical assistance, starting from imperial measurements standards tools.

 

The Desert Scheme had been discontinued well before the 51° Stormo was to receive their Spitfires, and it would surely have looked out of place within the Balkan Air Force. The Sky fuselage band, IIRC, was never mandatory in Italy, same as the yellow leading edges of wings.

 

I doubt German colours were ever used (not impossible but I find it rather unlikely) since the logistic supply of the BAF was almost entirely British, and that going into battle with enemy colours was probably perceived as increasing the risk of mis-identification. That said, colour images of RAF aircraft in Italy at the time often show marked variations in the tone of what was supposed to be OG: many Italian Spitfires seem to sport a very dark grey in their camouflage, which could have been locally mixed paint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

Hallo, Giorgio,

 

Is there any indication as to which "serials" ("20-x") were used on Vbs and which ones on Vcs? Or at least Vbs or Vc with serials confirmed?

 

BTW, RAF serial numbers were also obliterated, yet no colour difference can be ascertained. For sure that operation was made in the RAF MU with British paints... why the roundels were not overpainted at that moment?

 

Regards,

 

Fernando Rolandelli

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hallo, Giorgio,

 

Is there any indication as to which "serials" ("20-x") were used on Vbs and which ones on Vcs? Or at least Vbs or Vc with serials confirmed?

 

BTW, RAF serial numbers were also obliterated, yet no colour difference can be ascertained. For sure that operation was made in the RAF MU with British paints... why the roundels were not overpainted at that moment?

 

Regards,

 

Fernando Rolandelli

 

 

 

Alegi and Gueli quote some RAF serials in "Spitfire Italiani", but no correspondence to aircraft numbers could be found, so the wing type can only be inferred from the existing photos by looking at cannon fairing type, underwing bulges, etc. The presence or absence of cannon stubs outboard the existing 20mm is not an indication in itself, since they were not always present on "c" wings for a time.

 

As to the roundels having been repainted as the same time as the camouflage finish, I'd say probably yes.

 

Lodi in "L'Aeronautica Italiana nella Guerra di Liberazione" asserts that the Spitfires were completely repainted before entering service with the Regia Aeronautica.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fernando, I don't know of any "official list", best I can give you is a list compiled by an Italian fellow modeller and friend who went through the existing pictures and tried to do exactly this kind of thing. Original page is here, of course in Italian:

 

http://forum.tantopergioco.it/discussion/comment/45030#Comment_45030

 

From the list 20-4 and 20-14 are Mk.Vb.

20-2 and 20-12.... from the picture it's clear this is a Vb but it's not clear if it's 20-2 or 20-12- A Vc marked 20-2 existed for sure.

20-8 and 20-18 were Vc for sure and 20-1 was likely also a Vc

 

Since @gioca also posts on this forum, I'm mentioning him here. He investigated the subject of Cobelligeran Spitfires in much more depth than I did, maybe he has found something more on the matter

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Giorgio and Aereo, gentlemen, thank you.

 

I guessed that no official list existed... if a list was to be made, it would be on manteinance issues such as different engine components, etc., but the "subtype" would have been mentioned only if it helped to summarize those components. We historians/modellers are much more fussy about those denominations than contemporary servicemen. I thought that someone would have scrutinized the available pictures and made a provisional list, just as your friend did.

Now, the external distinguishing features are not easy to discern. The absence of underwing bulges, the upper ones, the position of the mgs, the straight sill in the lateral windscreen glass pieces would indicate a "c", but neither feature is readily apparent in photos. The shape of the gun fairings is more visible, though.

 

Aereo, I also thought that if the planes were so thoroughly painted as to cover the serials the rest of the insignia would have been also painted over at the same time.

 

Thank you again,

 

Fernando

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...