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Boulton Paul Defiant May 1940 colour scheme


48-Alone-Is-Great

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Did the Defiant have the black wing and/or Sky fuselage band in May 1940? It seems not.

 

Despite RAF fighters needing the bottom half black plus the Sky Type S fuselage band, and despite several colour profiles that show them with either, I haven't found a single photo, not from 1939, not from 1940.

 

I did find photos of crashed Defiants that can definitively be placed in May 1940, and these don't show a fuselage band and don't show a black underside of the fuselage, but no details of the underside of the wing is visible.

 

Should we agree that in May 1940 the Defiant used neither fuselage band nor black undersides? Or does someone here perhaps have that rare photo we've all been looking for, showing both?

 

The next question would be: why didn't the Defiant carry the regulation scheme?

 

Cheers.

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I think that you are referring to the Night port wing with Sky band and spinner, which belongs to very late 1940 not to May.  There was no trim before this.  The Night/white split to the underside, with Night or Black spinner, belonged to the first half of 1940, with the underside changing to Sky from June 6th.  The other change from May 1st was to add the fin flash and the Yellow ring to the fuselage roundels.

 

So the Defiants in the photos that you mention were in the correct scheme for the time, and if you look for later photos you should be able to find examples with the Night port wing and the Sky (or possibly Sky Blue) trim, but these will be later.

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My mind tells me that you will not find any Sky coloured bands on Defiants ever(?) and if I'm correct this underside colour was not introduced on RAF Day Fighters until at least June 1940. Therefore, I'd be more inclined to suggest that for 'May 1940' the Black / White undersurfaces would be the norm. The Sky / Black undersides and band are normally associated with the late Nov/Dec 1940 period by which time the struggling day-fighter scheme Defiants had resorted to night ops and painted Black (or RMD2). 

Someone else may be able to provide a more authoritative answer, however that's my take on RAF colours for the time period that your discussing. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

 

Edit - go with Graham's answer. I've not seen a Defiant with Sky / Sky Blue band however would be interested to see one. 

 

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Thanks, I'm specifically looking for 264 Sq. in May 1940.

In Brew's Turret Fighters there is a pic of a 264 Sq line up on p59. These do seem to show black/white wings and normal fuselage undersides, without fuselage band.

That matches the pics of the crashed planes, because there the wings are not visible.

 

But C&M states that the rest of the undersides are silver/alu, which doesn't fit those pics. So that'd be the early war light grey?

Edited by 48-Alone-Is-Great
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Hi

    Some of 276 Sqn ASR defiants had a tail band 

   but they formed in '41 

    not sure about the other ASR Sqn's 

 

 nearly forgot some of 691 Sqn TT defiants had tail bands also

      cheers

         jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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No early war light grey. Prewar undersides were Aluminium.  The half and half Night/ White scheme was initially wings only and the scheme was often misinterpreted to leave the rest of the underside Aluminium.

 

I don't know offhand when all the Defiants went to Night overall.

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Silver/aluminium undersides were the standard  for RAF day fighters into the early stages of the war.  Some Defianrs, e.g. L7005, left the factory with silver lower fuselage and tailplane undersides but with the wing undersurfaces in the Night/White scheme.  “Light Grey”, more correctly Medium Sea Grey, undersides did not make an appearance on RAF day fighters until early 1941 when Mixed Grey/Ocean Grey replaced Dark Earth as part of the upper surface camouflage.

Edited by stever219
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Here is that pic. I'd say the underside of the fuselage is grey?

 

By May 1940 these planes had the fuselage roundel with the wide yellow outer ring. Also, the fin flash had narrow bands. From pics it's not clear if the red forward band was just as narrow as the white and blue, or much wider.

 

Boulton_Paul_Defiant_264_Sq_Dec_1939_Bre

Edited by 48-Alone-Is-Great
Corrected Sky Grey to Aluminium in image text.
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I’d say that’s Aluminium under the nose cowl and rear fuselage with half black (Port wing) and white (Starboard wing) undersides. Trying to decipher grey and silver from Black & White photos is never easy, so I’d go with the official documentation of the day. 

 

Looks like Graham has beaten me once again, however looks like we still agree. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

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It's true that the BP factory can be expected to have Sky Grey paint in stock for they built ROCs to keep the factory employed as the Defiant production was delayed. That doesn't mean they would decide off their own bat to use it in the face of AM instructions otherwise.

 

 

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Thanks. I'll edit the pic accordingly. So here the pic of the crashed planes. Is that aluminium, grey or Sky Type S? Also notice the narrow bands of the fin flash, but is the red also narrow?

 

Boulton_Paul_Defiant_264_Sq_May_1940_Jol

Edited by 48-Alone-Is-Great
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Aluminium.  They weren't painted any kind of grey, and Sky wasn't introduced on fighters until June.

 

I would say that the red in the finflash was narrow, yes.  There were early examples of aircraft where the whole fin was painted, but then the other two colours were much wider.

 

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10 minutes ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

Does anyone know the callsign (PS-?) of 264 Sq Boulton Paul Defiant L 6974 flown by DHS Kay (with gunner EJ Jones) on May 13, 1940?

a member is writing a book on Defiants, @AndyL  he may know, this should give  him a notification.

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On 6/17/2018 at 2:14 PM, Graham Boak said:

Aluminium.  They weren't painted any kind of grey, and Sky wasn't introduced on fighters until June.

 

I would say that the red in the finflash was narrow, yes.  There were early examples of aircraft where the whole fin was painted, but then the other two colours were much wider.

 

Graham, I have two books, one from 1941, that give the Battle of France undersides as Black and grey, specifically citing Sky Grey, not white. Where does the insistence on White come from? I have cocontemporary evidence that 'white' is actually very pale grey.  

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It comes from every book I've seen on RAF camouflage.

 

I have seen anecdotal evidence that some shade of light blue (possibly Sky from Blenheim stocks?) was seen on some fighters in France - it may be in a passing comment in Richey's Fighter Pilot but I won't guarantee that.  I've not seen any comment about the use of Sky Grey in France.

 

I'd expect it to be possible to distinguish between White and Sky Grey on photos, given that FAA aircraft of this period do not appear as white.  It is more difficult to determine shades on the undersides, particularly where black is there as a contrast.

 

What are the sources you have for the use of Sky Grey?  It would certainly be rare to see the use of the correct paint names in a 1941 publication.

 

I know of no suggestion that White was anything other than the name suggests, allowing for modern paints being purer and more brilliant than those from earlier periods. I

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11 minutes ago, Arcticflyer said:

Graham, I have two books, one from 1941, that give the Battle of France undersides as Black and grey, specifically citing Sky Grey, not white. Where does the insistence on White come from? I have cocontemporary evidence that 'white' is actually very pale grey.  

 

Not Graham,  but what books?

What contemporary evidence?  The insistence on white is because that is what was specified, and applied at the factory.  

A few months use could easily make the white appear a very pale grey

 

the black/white/aluminium was standard fighter finish, see 

see https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/08-Boulton-Paul-Defiant

 

Boulton%20Paul%20Defiant%208%20(08)-960.

 

Boulton%20Paul%20Defiant%208%20(10)-960.

 

 

note also the monographs on Spitfire and Hurricane camouflage and markings, with the specified Black/White or Black/White/Aluminium undersides

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings

 

 

 

 

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