German MiG 17F Color Scheme

[Sambowlambow99]

I've been wanting to build an East German MiG and am looking at the Hobbyboss kit with a lot of consideration. However, upon looking up the color guide for the kit, I found that the colors were grossly inaccurate.

As you can see in this photo, the main color is a dark green and the stripes a dark, red-brown.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hobby-Boss-Model-80334-Scale-1-48-MiG-17F-Fresco-C-Aircraft-plastic-model-kit/32390345495.html

However, this is the Hobbyboss guide. Although the patterns seem to be correct, the colors are obviously off.

What colors should I use to make this East German MiG?

[Seawinder]

Perhaps do some doctoring to a dark green and a dark brown to get close to the photo?

[Sambowlambow99]

2 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Perhaps do some doctoring to a dark green and a dark brown to get close to the photo?

What do you mean?

[Seawinder]

I only meant that it wouldn't be that hard to get pretty close to the colors in the photo, whether or not any hobby paint line carries those exact "official" shades. The dark green looks quite similar to RAF Dark Green or USAF FS 34079 (as in the SEA scheme). Burnt umber might be a starting point for the dark red-brown, or maybe the German WW2 armor color darkened with some umber.

 

I just did a google search on East German camouflage colors and find this thread, which may be useful. It's not specifically about the Mig-17, but it does reveal that there were in fact no official standard colors for these schemes, and it has some suggested FS numbers for possible matches:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/53221-east-german-su-22m4-colours/

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

You could always start with late war RLM colors such as RLM 81 brown-violet & RLM 80 olive green. From there i would modify them to get closer to the photo ? 

This is one of the better RLM charts ive come across. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Sambowlambow99]

12 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

You could always start with late war RLM colors such as RLM 81 brown-violet & RLM 80 olive green. From there i would modify them to get closer to the photo ? 

This is one of the better RLM charts ive come across. 

Thanks for the chart!

13 hours ago, Seawinder said:

I only meant that it wouldn't be that hard to get pretty close to the colors in the photo, whether or not any hobby paint line carries those exact "official" shades. The dark green looks quite similar to RAF Dark Green or USAF FS 34079 (as in the SEA scheme). Burnt umber might be a starting point for the dark red-brown, or maybe the German WW2 armor color darkened with some umber.

 

I just did a google search on East German camouflage colors and find this thread, which may be useful. It's not specifically about the Mig-17, but it does reveal that there were in fact no official standard colors for these schemes, and it has some suggested FS numbers for possible matches:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/53221-east-german-su-22m4-colours/

 

Sorry for being obtuse. Thanks for the advice!

[Aardvark]

On 6/15/2018 at 9:19 PM, Sambowlambow99 said:

However, upon looking up the color guide for the kit, I found that the colors were grossly inaccurate.



Why are these colors sloppy?  

HobbyBoss indicated in the instructions is quite correct color!

 

Here are photos of this MiG-17 in colors that coincide with those that indicated HobbyBoss.

The problem is that these colors are indicated as of today!

This is the color of the aircraft that is in the museum's exposition in Gatov. In the museum it was restored and repainted. Here you can see photos of the various stages of life of this aircraft.

http://www.jbg37.de/html/905.htm

The problem is that apparently the MiG-17 NVA DDR had three shades:

http://www.jbg37.de/html/mig-17f_tarnschema_.html

During the restoration probably used one type shadow which the

used on MiG-21/23/29, Su-22 and some MiG-17, but they were not used on this MiG-17 a/n "905" red!

Thus, in such a color scheme, the restorers museum are more to blame than HobbyBoss!

But what exactly are the equivalent colors of this MiG-17 a/n "905"

for me a mystery! Perhaps the owners of this very good site can help you:

http://www.jbg37.de/html/impressum.html

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S. 

Almost all NVA DDR MiG-17 Jagdbombenfliegergeschwader 37 Klement Gottwald (NVA):

http://www.jbg37.de/html/verbleib_mig-17.html

 

P.P.S.

NVA DDR MiG-17 have some differences from original version. How written here:

https://military.wikireading.ru/29026

"In 1973, in the GDR, by the aircraft repair plant in Dresden, a number of MiG-17F fighter-bombers were upgraded to fighter-bombers. When upgrading the aircraft, components imported from Poland were used, including underwing pylons for hanging weapons, NAR MARS-2 blocks, radio altimeter RV-UM. All these units were developed in Poland for its own fighter-bomber modification of the MiG-17F. The East Germans also changed the composition of the airborne and instrumental equipment of the aircraft, set the sight of the ASP-2NM.

The East German fighter-bomber MiG-17F, although it had much in common with a similar Polish conversion, was not its copy. So in the DDR did not put in the base of the rudder direction container brake parachute SH-19, mandatory for Polish fighter-bombers. On the lower surfaces of the wing there were no T-shaped antennas of the radio altimeter RV-2, in return for the lower surface of the fuselage along its axis."

 

 

 

[Aardvark]

11 hours ago, Aardvark said:

But what exactly are the equivalent colors of this MiG-17 a/n "905"

for me a mystery!

As the Russian proverb says "Morning, evenings are more sophisticated". Some of the keys to solving this puzzle I managed to find. First of all, I was able to translate this article in color with the help of an interpreter, Google. (At night, the translator refused to translate for some reason.)

http://www.jbg37.de/html/mig-17f_tarnschema_.html

"The appearance MiG-17F experienced during the use of this type of aircraft in the JBG-37 different conversions.
The MiG-17F in the JBG-37 were the only MiG-17F LSK of the GDR, which received a camouflage as insert machines.

When setting up the squadron of the JG-7 MiG-17F was taken uncut in duralumin.

The camouflage of the MiG-17F was parallel to the conversion of the aircraft on the rocket container "MARS II" in the aircraft yard in Dresden.
The conversion of the MiG-17F in the JBG with the "MARS II" container began with the formation of the squadron from 1971 and ended in 1974/75.
The first aircraft, which were converted in 1971 and 1972, were left "silvery".

From 1973, the first camouflage paint was applied to the aircraft to be converted. This first camouflage consisted of a light green - light brown paint color.

From 1974/75, the remaining "silver" MiG-17F, including those that already had the "MARS II" container, received a dark green camouflage paint.

In the early 80s, the camouflage was changed again. It became now the usual color and camouflage scheme of the LSK / LV,
the dark green chlorine BUNA camouflage used."

 

Proceeding from this, my assertion of incorrect restoration in the museum can not be true!

 

Probably, the museum and the instructions HobbyBoss show the colors as of 1974/75 year's!

 

Then I became interested in what is "camouflage scheme of the LSK / LV,"
the "dark green chlorine BUNA"???

 

Search Google and:

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/mig-17f-der-nva-getarnt-oder-blond-frage-zu-takt-nummern-und-farbtoenen.78626/

Modellers from Germany  had exactly the same questions as here!

How write in this Germany  forum:

"For the mixed colors the TGL basic colors are described and in the network there are tables for their conversion into e.g. RAL colors. The information probably comes from the order A 113/1/001 - paintings for aircraft, helicopters and Fla missiles in troop repair"

From which we can conclude that the DDR had its own paint standard TGL, which is confirmed by Wikipedia:

http://www.mobadaten.info/wiki/TGL-Farbregister

.... the fact that some samples of the original paint are on sale:

https://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/nva/olivgruen2425tgl21196.php

and the camouflage application was regulated "order A 113/1/001".

This completely refutes the allegations:

"It has never given a real standardisation in the NVA (East German army), my Dad said."

from this topic:

Thus, we know that some of the NVA DDR MiG:

-  painted with the colors of the DDR production with the corresponding DDR standard TGL;

- camouflage based on the order  A 113/1/001;

- painting  was made in Dresden.

 

But what specific colors did they paint? Perhaps the attachment in this thread the German forum

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/frage-zu-lackierung-mig-1966-1990.41683/

provides an answer to this question, but they can not be seen without registering with the German forum.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

 

[Floggerman]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:32 AM, Aardvark said:

The problem is that apparently the MiG-17 NVA DDR had three shades:

 

 

 

 It's not three different schemes, it's three different times ! Especially the dark brown colour fade out quickly and looks greenish then. There is another terrible wrong restoring in Cottbus Museum:

 

 

I'd say, the Gatow plane is much better.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Floggerman

[Aardvark]

4 hours ago, Floggerman said:

 It's not three different schemes, it's three different times ! 

That is, you want to say, that at first the planes on the image were silver, then they were camouflaged in light green and brown tones, then because of weathering they became darker....and then even darker?

But I've never met anyone that would become darker with time!

Or is the site temporarily confused with a temporary sequence of images?

But how then can I be quoted from the site:

"From 1974/75, the remaining "silver" MiG-17F, including those that already had the "MARS II" container, received a dark green camouflage paint.

In the early 80s, the camouflage was changed again. It became now the usual color and camouflage scheme of the LSK / LV,
the dark green chlorine BUNA camouflage used."?

They clearly state that in the 80's the camouflage changed!

They are lying?

And as I understand

in mid-70, changes standard TGL then probably have changes colour?

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

5 hours ago, Floggerman said:

Especially the dark brown colour fade out quickly and looks greenish then.

As for my it's very strange. 

This is a sweater produced by the DDR, it was bought in 1988,

since then it has been washed many times in automatic washing machines, but it has stretched out a little so we separate it only inside the house, but for all this time it has not lost its original color!

And this is the only thing of clothes that I have left since the times of the USSR. The rest of the things of the collapse of the USSR had to be thrown out, because they either tore or lost their appearance.

 

Moreover, in the former Warsaw Pact, it was the chemical, paint and varnish products of the GDR that was considered one of the highest quality! This is in spite of the fact that Soviet military enamel for the majority of vehicles has a crazy strength, wear resistance and adhesion when applied in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

[Floggerman]

You are a funny guy, aren't you?

Ok, let me answer seriously.

1. we spoke aboute camouflaged planes, so forget the silver one

2. Yes, the order is reversed. Brand new very dark, later faded and brown became greenish.

3. as long as I didn't see the "early" paint scheme, I don't believe it. 1980 it was very dark green/brown. I can remember quite well.

4. believe it or not...

[Flyingdutchman]

I'm currently building a Mig-21PF also in DDR colours. I'm using Mr Paint FS36079 for the green and Vallejo Camo Light Brown for the brown. To me it suits the colours pretty good. Though I will darken the brown a little with a different tone.

The Mig-21PF and Mig-17 are from about the same time frame so you might want to try it.

 

Back in the DDR/GDR not many airfields had shelters so Mig's stood on the tarmac most of the time. Sun and bleeching was also happening so different tones were always there.

 

Cheers, Evert

[Sambowlambow99]

On 6/17/2018 at 5:05 AM, Aardvark said:

As the Russian proverb says "Morning, evenings are more sophisticated". Some of the keys to solving this puzzle I managed to find. First of all, I was able to translate this article in color with the help of an interpreter, Google. (At night, the translator refused to translate for some reason.)

http://www.jbg37.de/html/mig-17f_tarnschema_.html

"The appearance MiG-17F experienced during the use of this type of aircraft in the JBG-37 different conversions.
The MiG-17F in the JBG-37 were the only MiG-17F LSK of the GDR, which received a camouflage as insert machines.

When setting up the squadron of the JG-7 MiG-17F was taken uncut in duralumin.

The camouflage of the MiG-17F was parallel to the conversion of the aircraft on the rocket container "MARS II" in the aircraft yard in Dresden.
The conversion of the MiG-17F in the JBG with the "MARS II" container began with the formation of the squadron from 1971 and ended in 1974/75.
The first aircraft, which were converted in 1971 and 1972, were left "silvery".

From 1973, the first camouflage paint was applied to the aircraft to be converted. This first camouflage consisted of a light green - light brown paint color.

From 1974/75, the remaining "silver" MiG-17F, including those that already had the "MARS II" container, received a dark green camouflage paint.

In the early 80s, the camouflage was changed again. It became now the usual color and camouflage scheme of the LSK / LV,
the dark green chlorine BUNA camouflage used."

 

Proceeding from this, my assertion of incorrect restoration in the museum can not be true!

 

Probably, the museum and the instructions HobbyBoss show the colors as of 1974/75 year's!

 

Then I became interested in what is "camouflage scheme of the LSK / LV,"
the "dark green chlorine BUNA"???

 

Search Google and:

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/mig-17f-der-nva-getarnt-oder-blond-frage-zu-takt-nummern-und-farbtoenen.78626/

Modellers from Germany  had exactly the same questions as here!

How write in this Germany  forum:

"For the mixed colors the TGL basic colors are described and in the network there are tables for their conversion into e.g. RAL colors. The information probably comes from the order A 113/1/001 - paintings for aircraft, helicopters and Fla missiles in troop repair"

From which we can conclude that the DDR had its own paint standard TGL, which is confirmed by Wikipedia:

http://www.mobadaten.info/wiki/TGL-Farbregister

.... the fact that some samples of the original paint are on sale:

https://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/nva/olivgruen2425tgl21196.php

and the camouflage application was regulated "order A 113/1/001".

This completely refutes the allegations:

"It has never given a real standardisation in the NVA (East German army), my Dad said."

from this topic:

Thus, we know that some of the NVA DDR MiG:

-  painted with the colors of the DDR production with the corresponding DDR standard TGL;

- camouflage based on the order  A 113/1/001;

- painting  was made in Dresden.

 

But what specific colors did they paint? Perhaps the attachment in this thread the German forum

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/frage-zu-lackierung-mig-1966-1990.41683/

provides an answer to this question, but they can not be seen without registering with the German forum.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 6/16/2018 at 5:32 PM, Aardvark said:

 Why are these colors sloppy?  

HobbyBoss indicated in the instructions is quite correct color!

 

Here are photos of this MiG-17 in colors that coincide with those that indicated HobbyBoss.

The problem is that these colors are indicated as of today!

This is the color of the aircraft that is in the museum's exposition in Gatov. In the museum it was restored and repainted. Here you can see photos of the various stages of life of this aircraft.

http://www.jbg37.de/html/905.htm

The problem is that apparently the MiG-17 NVA DDR had three shades:

http://www.jbg37.de/html/mig-17f_tarnschema_.html

During the restoration probably used one type shadow which the

used on MiG-21/23/29, Su-22 and some MiG-17, but they were not used on this MiG-17 a/n "905" red!

Thus, in such a color scheme, the restorers museum are more to blame than HobbyBoss!

But what exactly are the equivalent colors of this MiG-17 a/n "905"

for me a mystery! Perhaps the owners of this very good site can help you:

http://www.jbg37.de/html/impressum.html

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S. 

Almost all NVA DDR MiG-17 Jagdbombenfliegergeschwader 37 Klement Gottwald (NVA):

http://www.jbg37.de/html/verbleib_mig-17.html

 

P.P.S.

NVA DDR MiG-17 have some differences from original version. How written here:

https://military.wikireading.ru/29026

"In 1973, in the GDR, by the aircraft repair plant in Dresden, a number of MiG-17F fighter-bombers were upgraded to fighter-bombers. When upgrading the aircraft, components imported from Poland were used, including underwing pylons for hanging weapons, NAR MARS-2 blocks, radio altimeter RV-UM. All these units were developed in Poland for its own fighter-bomber modification of the MiG-17F. The East Germans also changed the composition of the airborne and instrumental equipment of the aircraft, set the sight of the ASP-2NM.

The East German fighter-bomber MiG-17F, although it had much in common with a similar Polish conversion, was not its copy. So in the DDR did not put in the base of the rudder direction container brake parachute SH-19, mandatory for Polish fighter-bombers. On the lower surfaces of the wing there were no T-shaped antennas of the radio altimeter RV-2, in return for the lower surface of the fuselage along its axis."

 

 

 

Oh my. Thank you so much for the wealth of information! Absolutely stunning work!