Lancaster questions

[MSnell]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on here. I've read a few similar threads but wanted to check that I couldn't get any more recent tips:

 

I'm modelling my Great Uncle's Lancaster (actually the one he flew most). He died in the 90s so unfortunately I can't ask him about his aircraft. He completed 35 missions with 195 Squadron out of Wratting Common between November 1944 and VE Day. The aircraft he flew most (13 missions I think) was Lancaster I HK701 JE-B. Looking through his missions and at the only photograph I have of him, his crew and JE-B I have a few questions that hopefully someone can help with:

 

1. I have read that as a 3 Group aircraft, it was probably NOT fitted with H2S, I have also heard that it almost certainly WAS fitted with H2S! Any ideas on that? I'm not sure whether to add the dome.

2. For three of his missions (all of which were in JE-B) he had an extra crew member listed as "Mid-Under". I'm assuming this was a gunner. Is there any way of working out what they were using? I have read that it could be a turret or even just a machine gun and a hole in the fuselage floor. If fitted, would some kind of ventral defensive armament rule out H2S?

3. I have no reference to anything painted on the forward fuselage so (as a long shot) is there any chance of ever finding a photo of the aircraft? If so, where is best to look?

 

Anyway, hopefully someone will be able to offer a few tips.

 

Mark

 

[Graham Boak]

If there was a "Mid-Under Gunner" then this definitely would preclude the installation of H2S.  I'm afraid I have no idea of ventral gun positions on the Lancaster other than the FN ventral turret, but if this (or indeed anything else?) was fitted I'd expect to see more missions with the gunner.  If these missions were clustered (early or late) then this could indicate a modification to the aircraft not present at other times.  It might be worth finding out if the missions concerned were daylight ops.  In which case he may simply have been employed as an additional pair of eyes.

[Selwyn]

The lancaster was originally designed to have a Frazer Nash FN 64 underfuselage turret fitted. This was derived from the FN54 twin undernose turret used on the  Blenheim.   In practice the FN64  turret  was found not to be very effective, as it proved difficult to pick up and track a target, especially at night. It  was  removed from most operational bomber command aircraft as a weight saving measure and it also reduced the crew by one gunner. The underfusealge mounting ring for the turret was then used to mount the H2S radar scanner when this equipment became available, so you could never  have  H2S and a FN64 Turret fitted.  Very Late on in  the war when Lancasters started to operate more in daytime  the turret was reinstated on a few  aircraft.

So if you had a extra gunner listed in the crew for the three missions it would indicate no H2S and the  FN 64 fitted.

 

Selwyn

 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Selwyn

[MSnell]

Thanks Graham. I've got his missions here so I'll try and provide a better picture:

 

The missions he flew in this particular aircraft were as follows:

 

04-12-44 Oberhausen, daylight, normal crew (1st mission as aircraft captain following two as 2nd pilot).

06-12-44 Merseberg, night, normal crew.

08-12-44 Duisberg, daylight, normal crew (aircraft hit in port wing, port inner engine, nose and mid-upper turret perspex)

other aircraft, presumably due to damage to JE-B. Normal crew.

28-12-44 Osterfeld, daylight, normal crew.

31-12-44 Vohwinkel, daylight, normal crew.

01-01-45 Vohwinkel, night, normal crew.

06-01-45 Neuss, night, normal crew.

other aircraft, normal crew except for 1x2nd pilot.

02-02-45 Wiesbaden, night, "Mid Under" listed as F/S Smith.

other aircraft, normal crew.

18-02-45 Wesel, daylight, normal crew.

19-02-45 Wesel, daylight, normal crew.

other aircraft, normal crew except for 1x2nd pilot.

14-03-45 Dortmund, daylight, "Mid Under" listed as F/S Stephens.

other aircraft, normal crew.

27-03-45 Altenbogge, daylight, "Mid Under" listed as W/O Stephens (promoted?!)

other aircraft, normal crew except for 1x2nd pilot.

 

I suppose there is a bit of a pattern but then again there were a couple of missions in JE-B with a normal crew in February 1945.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MSnell]

Thanks Selwyn. I'm going to leave the H2S dome off I think. It will be easy to add it later if I have to anyway! I have a photo somewhere of him and the crew, taken from about the 7 O'clock position and there may be something visible which might be a turret or an H2S dome. I'll see if I can find it.

[modelldoc]

A little corretion:

 

06-12-44 Merseberg means - Merseburg Leuna refinery

 

08-12-44 Duisberg means - Duisburg

 

modelldoc

[MSnell]

Thanks. The document I have is transcribed from the records at Kew (those typos are original!) and I wasn't paying much attention when copying it over. There are a lot of mistakes in there including take off time of 0891 for the Duisburg raid. Here's a bit more information from those two:

 

SUMMARY:  The target was the Leuna synthetic oil works.  Sixteen aircraft took off and all landed safely.  The target was obscured by 10/10 cloud with tops up to 8,000 feet and bombing was on T.Is and flares, both of which were concentrated.  Results were difficult to assess but the glow of the fires was seen up to 100 miles and one large explosion was observed.  The heavy flak was not so formidable as expected being reported as moderate and generally bursting below our aircraft.  Several fighters were seen and combats ensued with little damage to our aircraft.

 

SUMMARY:  21 aircraft detailed, one failed to carry out mission.  All returned safely.  9-10/10 cloud with tops at 6-10,000 feet over target.  Majority of crews bombed on special equipment or their leaders and remainder on flames which were concentrated.  Results impossible to assess owing to cloud, most crews report a good bombing concentration.  Flak was moderate over the target and front line.  Several aircraft hit by flak, no fighters seen.

 

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

Hi Mark, can't help with the actual configuration of your particular aircraft, except to agree with what's been posted above.

One other alternative is the fitment of a single hand held machine gun in an open mount in the former FN64 mounting ring.

Joe McCarthy's Dambuster Lancaster had this arrangement, and I beleive this arrangement was also used on some main force Lancasters.

Modelling wise, some boxings of the latest tooling Airfix kits will provide you with the alternatives discussed

The Dambusters boxings have a hand held lewis gun and mounting plate to fit in the vacant turret ring.

The BII boxing has the parts for an FN64 turret.

If you've already got a kit (or don't want an extra BII just for the turret) a post in wanted should get you the required bits from someone who's built the kit without using the parts.

[MSnell]

Thanks Dave, I'll have a look!

[Selwyn]

2 hours ago, MSnell said:

Thanks Selwyn. I'm going to leave the H2S dome off I think. It will be easy to add it later if I have to anyway! I have a photo somewhere of him and the crew, taken from about the 7 O'clock position and there may be something visible which might be a turret or an H2S dome. I'll see if I can find it.

If it was a standard official lancaster  crew picture  you will not see anything. Most of these pictures were purposely posed in such a way that the mainwheel obscured the H2S dome position  for security reasons.

One clue  to find out if  H2S was fitted is the canopy perspex panel located just behind the pilots side window.  Non H2S aircraft  normally had a clear view  blister so that a crew member could stick a head out and look downwards. On H2S equipped aircraft  the  H2S equipment position in the cockpit behind the pilots seat prevented access to the blister and it became redundant ,so it became quite common to replace the blister with a flat perspex panel. Please note that this is not 100% hard and fast rule , its just a good indicator as to the aircraft equipment fit.

 

Selwyn

[MSnell]

This is the photo I mentioned. My Great Uncle is second from the left.

 

Here’s what I’m talking about:

 

Any ideas?

 

 

 

[Seahawk]

Mark Postletwaite's Lancaster Squadrons In Focus has no photos of JE-coded 195 Sq aircraft, only A4-.  Sorry.

 

There are 4 photos of a crashed HK703 (ie just 2 away from HK701) in the Sep 96 Aeroplane Monthly: this aircraft was serving with 1653 Heavy Conversion Unit when it crashed on 18 Sep 45, so its configuration then may not have been that of an operational wartime aircraft.  However it has:

 

- no sign of fuselage slit windows

- flat panel in canopy behind pilot

- paddle-blade props

- no exhaust shrouds (possibly removed post-war though they were sometimes removed towards the very end of the war when more missions were being flown in daylight).

 

In its very distressed condition it is impossible to tell whether or not there was a H2S radome on the underside.

 

HTH

[MSnell]

28 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Mark Postletwaite's Lancaster Squadrons In Focus has no photos of JE-coded 195 Sq aircraft, only A4-.  Sorry.

 

There are 4 photos of a crashed HK703 (ie just 2 away from HK701) in the Sep 96 Aeroplane Monthly: this aircraft was serving with 1653 Heavy Conversion Unit when it crashed on 18 Sep 45, so its configuration then may not have been that of an operational wartime aircraft.  However it has:

 

- no sign of fuselage slit windows

- flat panel in canopy behind pilot

- paddle-blade props

- no exhaust shrouds (possibly removed post-war though they were sometimes removed towards the very end of the war when more missions were being flown in daylight).

 

In its very distressed condition it is impossible to tell whether or not there was a H2S radome on the underside.

 

HTH

Thank you very much for that! Glad to hear there were no slit windows, I have already blanked them out in my kit! I’ve left the exhaust shroud covers on though. I haven’t mounted the props yet, but the photo above was making me lean towards the paddle blades (would love more opinions on that though).

[Seahawk]

A point to note is that, although the HKxxx serial range is quite early, the aircraft themselves were delivered quite late, between Nov 1943 and Feb 45 (and HK701 is in the 2nd half of the batch of 200).

 

And the props in the photo look like paddle-blade to me.

[cherisy]

Looking at the photo it looks as if what you have there is the FN64 fitted. As stated above the parts are in the new Airfix tooling ( meant for the BII) . Some 3 group Lancs had a single .50 cal Browning fitted to fire through the Turret ring  with the gunner merely sitting or kneeling on the floor. All very low tech. There is a photo in one of the Lancaster at war series of books. From memory it was a 622 Lanc out of Mildenhall and all you could see was the barrel poking out. But my money is on the FN64 going by that snap as the mounting appears to protrude and one of the guns is visible. Just a thought but have you tried the National Archives at Kew for a look at the ORBs? sometime there is mention of them being fitted.

As an aside I know Wratting Common well and spent time poking about whats left of the airfield as a kid when I used to stay in Haverhill with family.   

[MSnell]

18 minutes ago, cherisy said:

Looking at the photo it looks as if what you have there is the FN64 fitted. As stated above the parts are in the new Airfix tooling ( meant for the BII) . Some 3 group Lancs had a single .50 cal Browning fitted to fire through the Turret ring  with the gunner merely sitting or kneeling on the floor. All very low tech. There is a photo in one of the Lancaster at war series of books. From memory it was a 622 Lanc out of Mildenhall and all you could see was the barrel poking out. But my money is on the FN64 going by that snap as the mounting appears to protrude and one of the guns is visible. Just a thought but have you tried the National Archives at Kew for a look at the ORBs? sometime there is mention of them being fitted.

As an aside I know Wratting Common well and spent time poking about whats left of the airfield as a kid when I used to stay in Haverhill with family.   

Ok, thanks for that. It may be worth another look at the ORBs.

 

as for the turret, the thing that confused me was that if it is an FN64 then why would they not carry a gunner every trip? It did look like a turret to me though, it didn’t seem round enough for an H2S dome.

 

i only got to Wratting Common once but was glad to get my granddad (his brother was the Lancaster pilot) there to see the memorial stone. Seemed to be the perfect place for an airfield but there were only a handful of buildings left.

[cherisy]

I can only assume that there were not enough spare gunners for each trip . The FN64s were fitted on the first use of Lancasters on a daylight raid back in 1942 to Augsburg. I dont think they carried the extra gunner on that occasion either. Might be worth looking at any 3 group HQ correspondence as the order to have them refitted may have come from there 

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I had a look through the book 'Squadron Codes 1937 - 1956' for your 'JE' coded Lancasters.

The main part of the Squadron used 'A4-' but 'C' Flight which was formed in November 1944 used 'JE' Only example listed is JB475 /JE-G

 

I'll have a look through Harry Holmes' book Avro Lancaster the definitive record' and get back to you later.

 

EDIT.

Nothing much further to add other than to confirm the serial number you have. It was only operated by 195 and went to 38MU in Aug 45 and was scrapped in May 47.

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, MSnell said:

This is the photo I mentioned.

That's unusual for a group photo - the crew usually obscure the bit the modeller wants to look at!

The bit in question is an FN64 turret, and I'd go with Seahawk's observations of HK703, paddle blades and lack of fuselage windows can be seen in your photo, exhaust shrouds optional, and lack of canopy bulge odds on given HK703 configuration.

As to why no mid-under gunner on some trips but not others, probably a combination of factors.

Percieved fighter threat

Availability of fighter escort

Required fuel & bomb load vs extra weight of gunner, guns and ammunition ( I doubt very much the turret was removed and refitted)

Availability of gunners across the squadron to man the turrets

[MSnell]

Ok, thanks all. I guess I had better look into trying to find a ventral turret! The really annoying thing is that I did have another photo of them all stood by the rear hatch, starboard side. It probably shows exactly what’s there but I have no idea where it is.

[MSnell]

10 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

I had a look through the book 'Squadron Codes 1937 - 1956' for your 'JE' coded Lancasters.

The main part of the Squadron used 'A4-' but 'C' Flight which was formed in November 1944 used 'JE' Only example listed is JB475 /JE-G

 

I'll have a look through Harry Holmes' book Avro Lancaster the definitive record' and get back to you later.

Ok, thanks. From his records I see he flew:

A4-J HK660, 2nd pilot

A4-P LM543, 2nd pilot

JE-B HK701, 12 missions

JE-E NG351, 1 mission

JE-H PD399, 1 mission

JE-L PD703, 3 missions

JE-K NG452, 4 missions

JE-G JB475, 2 missions

A4-V NG130, 1 mission

JE-C PD395, 1 mission

JE-A PB794, 4 missions

JE-D PD856, 1 mission

JE-? ??425, 1 mission

A4-C PB858, 1 mission

JE-M HK764, 1 mission

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Holmes' book doesn't give any aircraft ..425 with 195.

Wonder if it was a typo for NG452 JE-K

Only other candidates ED425, LM425, ME425, ND425, PA425, PB425  and PD425 appear to have never served with 195.

[WV908]

2 hours ago, MSnell said:

Ok, thanks all. I guess I had better look into trying to find a ventral turret! The really annoying thing is that I did have another photo of them all stood by the rear hatch, starboard side. It probably shows exactly what’s there but I have no idea where it is.

Hi MSnell - no need to look as I have a spare from my B.II which is going to become a Lincoln. PM me your delivery address and i’ll post it when I can 

 

EDIT: I’ll send over the fairing and bulged bomb bay doors too as it looks like your Lanc had them fitted. There’s also a turret ring that it attaches on to.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

Edited June 4, 2018 by WV908

[MSnell]

7 hours ago, WV908 said:

Hi MSnell - no need to look as I have a spare from my B.II which is going to become a Lincoln. PM me your delivery address and i’ll post it when I can 

 

EDIT: I’ll send over the fairing and bulged bomb bay doors too as it looks like your Lanc had them fitted. There’s also a turret ring that it attaches on to.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

Wow! Thanks so much! I’m amazed how helpful everyone has been. Are the bulged bomb doors fairly certain? I have a side elevation in a book here that shows an ‘HK’ series Lancaster with bulged doors but no ventral turret but I also have one with the turret and standard doors. I wish I had a few more photos of that aircraft!

[MSnell]

8 hours ago, Scimitar said:

Holmes' book doesn't give any aircraft ..425 with 195.

Wonder if it was a typo for NG452 JE-K

Only other candidates ED425, LM425, ME425, ND425, PA425, PB425  and PD425 appear to have never served with 195.

Yes, I think that must be it. I transcribed it from scans of the original and there were a few typos. I think that may have been crossed out and overwritten by the original author. 452 definitely makes sense then.